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[Opening theme music]

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Hello, and welcome to this episode
of ArtsAbly in Conversation.

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My name is Diane Kolin.

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This series presents artists, academics,
and project leaders who dedicate their

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time and energy to a better accessibility
for people with disabilities in the arts.

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You can find more of these conversations
on our website, artsably.com,

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which is spelled A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com.

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[Theme music]

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Today, ArtsAbly is in conversation
with Andrew Dell'Antonio,

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Distinguished Teaching Professor and Head
of the Musicology

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and Ethnomusicology Division
of the Butler School of Music

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in the College of Fine Arts
at the University of Texas at Austin.

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You can find the resources mentioned
by Andrew Dell'Antonio during this episode

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on ArtsAbly's website in the blog section.

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Welcome to this new episode
of ArtsAbly in Conversation.

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Today, I am with Andrew Dell'Antonio,

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who is a Distinguished Teaching Professor

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and the Head of the Musicology
and Ethnomusicology Division

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of the Butler School of Music
in the College of Fine Arts

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at the University of Texas at Austin.

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Thank you so much
for joining us today, Andrew.

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Thank you so much, Diane.
I'm very honored to be here.

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Thank you.

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I always start this episode by asking you
to present yourself.

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Yes. My name is Andrew Dell'Antonio,
or my given name is Andrea.

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I was born in Italy.

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My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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I'm delighted to be here to talk
with you about disability in the arts.

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Thank you so much.

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Okay, so I know that, first of all,
I discovered by listening to an interview

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that you gave a few months ago or years,

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that you are a recorder player.

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Yes, absolutely.

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Yes, that was my first instrument.

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I came to music through the recorder.

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In fact, the recorder is really the primary 
instrument that I've always played.

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I never trained on an
orchestra instrument.

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I took some voice lessons, but I never
really became a very skilled singer.

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When I was very small, my parents had me 
start on the recorder, as many parents do.

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But the turning point for me was a year
that my stepfather was the director

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of a study abroad program
in Firence, in Florence.

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My stepfather retired a few years ago 
from Smith College. He's a medievalist.

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He was leading students to
this one-year program in Florence,

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and so my family went back there.

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I'll tell you a bit more
about why I'm saying went back.

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But we went there and my parents
were continuing to suggest that I studied

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with the instrument, so I went
to study with somebody and I was just

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playing the regular folk tunes
and so forth that I was playing.

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The person asked me, Would you like to learn some repertory 
that was written for that instrument?

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I said, What? From that point on,
it was all the way from there.

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I really became passionate about early
historical, early European repertories.

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Did a few summer workshops
while still in Italy.

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Really, that was
my instrument through college.

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By the time I got to college,
I was most interested in music history.

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Once I got to graduate school, I was
in musicology, but I continued playing.

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In fact, all the way
until coming here University of Texas

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in 1997, for the first few years,
I was playing fairly regularly with early

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European music ensembles in the area.

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I'm rusty now, but every now and then,
I bring the instrument back out.

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I often will use it
in classes, introductory classes to talk

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about improvisation,
improvisation of ground basses,

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things like that, because that's one of the things 
that I like the most about 

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these early repertories on which 
I've focused in my research is

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the flexibility and the the non-determinacy 

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of the notation and the opportunity for 
contemporary musicians to make it their own.

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But so that's a long way
to say, yes, I'm a recorder player.

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Okay. And you mentioned you were studying 
musicology in your grad studies.

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What was your...

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What schools did you attend?

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And what made you really dig deeper

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into this 16th and 17th century music?

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Yeah, well, I guess I'll start.

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By the way, I don't know
if I'm going to apologize.

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I tend to tell long stories.

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This is something that connects
to my particular neurology,

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and so there you have it.

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I'm Italian originally.

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My first citizenship is Italian.

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My first language was Italian.

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I came to the United States at age nine
when my mom married my stepfather.

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I went back a number of times.

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My father was still there.
A lot of family is still there.

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So part what has always been
interesting to me is European culture.

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That's part of who I am.
I'm a European citizen still.

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As I studied music, I was very interested in the way 
that music played within culture more generally.

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Even as I was relatively young,
still in high school and college,

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I was always very interested in how music
created cultural meaning and how music

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inserted itself into cultural meaning.

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Also, I have this unfair advantage that
Italian was the first language I learned.

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I learned French when I was very small.

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I have this fluency in European languages.

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My German is not quite as good.

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I learned that in college, but still.

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Part of the reason why, again,
I gravitated towards the study

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of historical European music,
having also studied Latin in school,

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is that the language makes sense
to me, the culture makes sense to me.

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And so trying to make sense
of how the culture worked with the music

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back then and how it works today
has always been very interesting to me.

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I guess that's where it came from.

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Music was not what I automatically
knew I wanted to study in college,

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but by the time I was there
for a year, year and a half,

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it was clear that that was a passion.

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I went directly -

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I was an undergraduate at Yale University
I went directly from there

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to University of California, Berkeley.

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I always was interested in earlier
repertories, instrumental repertories,

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especially as an instrumentalist.

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Since then, I've become very interested
in questions of listening and questions

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of how music is understood and processed
and used by particular cultural groups

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to create particular kinds
of possibilities or hurdles for others.

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Again, my early work in graduate school
and shortly after graduate school

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connected to instrumental music.

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But after that, most of my publications
have to do with listening,

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both historical listening in the past
and listening in the present questions.

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I have an essay out there
about I'm listening at MTV.

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Actually, I have two
of them from a while back.

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But more recently, I've really become
very interested in questions connected

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to disability, and I guess this is going
to be our segue, and how I might have -

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I moved into disability-related matters
in the arts and in music, specifically.

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Tell us about that.

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I'm just monologuing here.

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I'm taking over for you.
- Great segue! 

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Well, no, I mean, if that's not where
you want to go next, I shouldn't.

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No, definitely, it's where I wanted to go next.

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You just read my mind.

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I read your mind, exactly.

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Well, since your podcast has been going
on for a while, I've really learned a lot

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from people you've brought on,
and oftentimes I know that they

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have been speaking to how they
got into music and disability.

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My path to disability,
I guess, is twofold.

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One is I was born with
a particular cognitive way

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of operating, which I didn't really
know until I was diagnosed with ADHD

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at age 54, 55, somewhere in there.

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But this is not what...

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I mean, looking back over my life,
it's like, yes, okay, many of the traits

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that are attributed to that particular
pathology or pathologization of a way

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of being were things that happened to me
or I were part of my life earlier.

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As it happened,
because I was very fortunate.

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I had a very supportive family.

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I was not a first-generation graduate
of college or even of graduate school.

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I was in a community that
was very supportive of academic work.

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I was not disabled according

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to social model by my way of being.

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That's been very interesting
for me to figure out if and how

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to claim disability, because certainly
there are aspects of the way I am that

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could be perceived as being impaired
within certain contemporary contexts.

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But because they have mostly
manifested when I've been older and when

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I've been very powerful and privileged,
people have had to accommodate me.

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I've never actually had to request
accommodations of any sort,

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which has been really interesting for me
to think about, but to be also cognizant

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of people who work the way I do
having to request accommodations.

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If I'd known more about the way
I worked then certain accommodations

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that might have helped it, I probably
would have been helpful for me

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when I was younger, but they weren't.

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That's part one.

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But the way that I initially came to 
be cognizant of disability culture

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was that my daughter Miriam, 
who's going to be turned 23 -

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no, I'm sorry, 24, this August -
is autistic, non-speaking,

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has epilepsy, a few other difficulties.

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Very quickly, as she was growing up,
I was placed into this very interesting

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community of parents of disabled kids,
but also in conversation with,

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and sometimes unfortunately,
conflict with disabled adults with those

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particular configurations of body lines.

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I learned an incredible amount from
talking with, corresponding with being

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online with the autistic neurodiversity
community, really over the last 20 years,

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especially, I guess, the last 15 years.

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It's been a long journey.

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Even before my own diagnosis,
which, frankly, I saw it partly

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because I'd learned so much about
what various kinds of neurodivergent,

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how they manifested, and I thought,
I wonder if, and sure enough.

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I have been
drawing on certain kinds of resources.

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There are medications that
have been helpful for my focus.

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I have been working with a counselor who is 
also ADHD and very good at providing strategies.

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But where then this all came to a head
has been in my teaching.

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So my interest in the realities
of different ways of being, being

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legitimate in the world,
and my realization that 

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in academic contexts,
those alternate ways of legitimately being

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in the world were not being honored,
has led me in the last decade or so to

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trying to find approaches,
some of them curricular, some of them

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political, some of them strategic, to
foster diversity, honoring diversity of

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all sorts,
regardless of your body and mind,

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whether using categories
of age or race or disability.

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So really I sometimes do claim
the identity disabled.

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I also make it very explicit, as I just
did a few minutes ago, that

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under the social model, I'm not 
really disabled at all because

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 I function very well within my professional context.

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But it is true that, for example,
I have a very difficult time

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keeping track of time.

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The flow of time does not process for me
the way it does for many other people.

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I've had to build lots of strategies
to make time work for me.

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In a different context, I could have 
been in a lot more trouble

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because I'm late to almost everything.
Things like that. 

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So that's my background. 
Really, most of the work...

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I've published a little bit in Music
and Disability, but it's just about...

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Most of it has been focused
on teaching, a little bit has

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been focused on neurodiversity 
more broadly, 

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and I'm Ihappy to talk a little bit about that, too.

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Yes. But I think also it's a good point about
the fact that whatever your disability is,

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it can also be a strength.

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I know that with hyperactivity because 

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when you're able to focus your energy on...

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Especially you, you did
a good job in intersectionality.

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You wrote about gender, sexuality.

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You wrote a bit about
disability, as you said.

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But in a way, you have broadened
a lot of different perspectives

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and views on your society,
which has to do or not with disability.

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We also have discussions
about the fact that

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everybody has different access needs.

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I talk about that a lot.

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When you were talking about
this maybe conflictual conversations

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with other people with disabilities
who have other views, it's important

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to really understand the diversity of
access needs and abilities that we have.

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I think you did a good job in all that
because you wrote a lot about

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these different perspectives, right?

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Yeah. Yes.

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Again, in various places, I mean,
one of the things that have found...

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One of the places where I've been very 
present in these conversations, 

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or been significantly present in 
these conversations,

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has been in online social media
and I've been boosting a lot of voices.

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I've been writing a bit there
as well, blogging a bit,

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and then again writing a few essays.

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I have to say in terms of academic writing
on disability, that's not

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been my focus, and that's okay.

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But I think recently, I'm trying to now
remember the author, but I will be able

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to give you a link later,
Diane, if you want to post it.

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An author, a disabled author who, one
of whose focus is access and academic access, 

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talking about access friction

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as another way of describing this concept,

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which, again, in many ways is often

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described as conflicting access needs.

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What this author said, which
I thought was really useful,

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was that if you frame it as conflict,
then it's a scarcity model where only

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some people can, or potentially,
only some people can get what they won't need.

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But if you're talking about friction,
you're talking about there are multiple

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ways that will rub up against each other.

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And friction is not always bad.

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In fact, friction In another context of -

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in all this AI resources

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and these large language models
that allow you to write without friction.

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I've seen people say, actually,
friction when you're writing

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and thinking is good because you...

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thinking, rubbing up against something that 

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isn't quite resolved is a way
that we change and we think and we grow.

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If something is frictionless, then
it doesn't give us a chance to dwell on

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exactly who might be being left out,
what the intersections that we're not

246
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paying attention might be.

247
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All this is to say I liked how
this person framed access friction.

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Often in classes, both
disability-focused classes and otherwise,

249
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talked about conflicting access needs
or contrasting access needs.

250
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But I appreciate friction
as a non-charged or charged,

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but not negative term about that.

252
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But absolutely, one of the things...

253
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I have to say,
I think I feel very fortunate that...

254
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I think partly because I came to other

255
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marginalized identity studies

256
00:17:17,536 --> 00:17:20,372
before I came to disability musicology.

257
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When I was finishing graduate school,
feminism was first, which is bizarre to say, 

258
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but first really coming into play,
so strong second-generation feminism,

259
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second-wave feminism in musicology.

260
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I was very taken by and
very much in favor of the work.

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I saw how much it was disruptive,
disruptive even to my own thinking.

262
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But I was fortunate back then to not
feel challenged to manage to get beyond

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the defensiveness and to figure out,
Okay, how can we help create

264
00:17:50,969 --> 00:17:54,973
greater equity within this context.

265
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Then when around the same time, actually,
queer studies hit hard in academia.

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Also, even as a cis man,
I was extremely taken by

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the importance of those messages.

268
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And so yet again, I had to
reconfigure my ideas of my own position

269
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within that marginalization
and try not to be defensive.

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When then I came across disability
as a disability culture, 

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particularly neurodiversity, neurodivergence culture,
and I was faced with the idea that

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the way I'd been thinking about my child
was potentially harmful and wrong-headed.

273
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I was fortunate to be able to say,
Okay

274
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rather than, Oh, my, 
no, no, no, no, that can't be.

275
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I love my child.

276
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There's no way that the way
I've been thinking could possibly

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be harmful to my child.

278
00:18:44,823 --> 00:18:48,160
That, I guess, back to this idea
of intersectionality is…

279
00:18:48,193 --> 00:18:51,763
I don't want to pretend
that I am inherently better on me.

280
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I still make mistakes
and I still am learning.

281
00:18:54,199 --> 00:18:59,471
But I've managed over time to cultivate
this idea of if somebody tells me

282
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that harm is happening, I do my best not
to deny that I have a role in it.

283
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That can be very difficult
because, again, one doesn't

284
00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:13,652
want to feel like one has done harm.

285
00:19:13,685 --> 00:19:17,656
One doesn't want to feel like
one is creating difficulties for others.

286
00:19:17,689 --> 00:19:23,462
But structural biases,
and disability is one of the categories,

287
00:19:23,462 --> 00:19:26,231
thorough structural biases on access

288
00:19:26,265 --> 00:19:30,102
are just so baked into everything we do,

289
00:19:30,135 --> 00:19:36,241
and certainly academic work and the arts,
that if we ignore them and we say,

290
00:19:36,241 --> 00:19:39,611
Well, we didn't mean to set them up
that way, so

291
00:19:39,645 --> 00:19:43,448
we don't have to do anything about them,
then we continue leaving people out.

292
00:19:43,482 --> 00:19:48,687
Leaving people out is something
that I've always had a problem with.

293
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,224
Again, I think
I've been fortunate that I was able to go

294
00:19:52,257 --> 00:19:58,030
through the exercise of
correcting my own thinking significantly

295
00:19:58,096 --> 00:20:03,001
with other identity categories before then
I got hit hard with the disability issue,

296
00:20:03,035 --> 00:20:08,974
which was in a way a lot closer to me when
you have a child who's disabled and you

297
00:20:08,974 --> 00:20:13,679
come up with a perspective that you think
is correct and the best for your child.

298
00:20:13,712 --> 00:20:16,582
Then an adult comes to you
who has a disability and says,

299
00:20:16,582 --> 00:20:20,752
No, actually, what you're doing
is potentially harmful to your child.

300
00:20:20,786 --> 00:20:26,291
It's much closer than an academic
exercise, but it's also more important.

301
00:20:26,325 --> 00:20:28,393
Anyway, so that's how I came into it.

302
00:20:28,427 --> 00:20:33,799
One of the things I really like about or
I'm really grateful about

303
00:20:33,832 --> 00:20:37,402
my opportunities within disability
in the arts,

304
00:20:37,436 --> 00:20:43,075
is that I am teaching at a university
with a very strong performing arts

305
00:20:43,108 --> 00:20:46,812
program in music in my own area,
but also as well as in theater and dance.

306
00:20:46,845 --> 00:20:50,282
We have a really good
visual arts program as well.

307
00:20:50,315 --> 00:20:55,754
Over the years,
I've been here not 27 years.

308
00:20:55,787 --> 00:20:57,990
Lord, I can't believe them.

309
00:20:58,023 --> 00:21:02,227
Basically, almost a half
a lifetime for me.

310
00:21:02,260 --> 00:21:08,734
I've grown in professional
accomplishment, authority, privilege,

311
00:21:08,734 --> 00:21:14,172
so that now I can be very visibly

312
00:21:15,741 --> 00:21:18,043
in favor of certain kinds of change

313
00:21:18,043 --> 00:21:22,381
without as much risk to me personally.

314
00:21:22,414 --> 00:21:27,352
I know that a lot of younger scholars,
a lot of younger people within an academy

315
00:21:27,386 --> 00:21:30,656
are legitimately more concerned about
coming out, as it were,

316
00:21:30,689 --> 00:21:35,460
in favor of certain things that
would question certain core aspects 

317
00:21:35,460 --> 00:21:38,130
of the academic enterprise.

318
00:21:38,163 --> 00:21:40,565
I feel like I can make a difference.

319
00:21:40,599 --> 00:21:43,268
At this point in my life,
it feels very good.

320
00:21:43,301 --> 00:21:46,505
I'm almost 62.

321
00:21:46,538 --> 00:21:49,041
No, 61.

322
00:21:49,508 --> 00:21:52,077
I know how old I am.
I'm almost 61.

323
00:21:52,744 --> 00:21:57,215
I'm starting to think backwards
towards legacy things, as well as

324
00:21:57,249 --> 00:21:59,718
helping to bring people forward.

325
00:21:59,751 --> 00:22:04,356
Again, the work that younger scholars
are doing, that you're doing as they're doing

326
00:22:04,389 --> 00:22:08,694
is so meaningful and so important.

327
00:22:08,694 --> 00:22:11,463
I'm in a position to be able
to help support that, I think,

328
00:22:11,496 --> 00:22:12,631
and that feels good.

329
00:22:12,664 --> 00:22:15,500
I'm in a position to help
introduce students to ways

330
00:22:15,534 --> 00:22:19,237
of thinking about disability
that I myself was not introduced to

331
00:22:19,271 --> 00:22:22,441
in undergraduate or graduate.

332
00:22:23,075 --> 00:22:27,412
If I had been introduced to them earlier,
perhaps my own thinking would have

333
00:22:27,412 --> 00:22:29,481
gotten to a better place more quickly.

334
00:22:29,581 --> 00:22:35,454
But all that, actually, everything you're
mentioning right now, it's about learning.

335
00:22:35,620 --> 00:22:39,157
You learn as a parent with a child
with disability, 

336
00:22:39,157 --> 00:22:42,394
you learn as an exchange with others.

337
00:22:42,427 --> 00:22:46,431
I'm not talking about academic,
I'm talking about life in general.

338
00:22:46,431 --> 00:22:48,533
Life is a constant learning.

339
00:22:48,533 --> 00:22:53,638
If you're willing to learn and to acquire
new knowledge that you're able

340
00:22:53,672 --> 00:23:00,512
to transmit, which is really the heart
of what we are doing in

341
00:23:00,545 --> 00:23:04,783
this exercise as a teacher,
but also as a person,

342
00:23:04,783 --> 00:23:10,889
and that's what I appreciate when we get
together and we talk is that there is this

343
00:23:10,922 --> 00:23:12,924
constant learning in exchange.

344
00:23:12,958 --> 00:23:16,895
I think that's what you're also
transmitting to your own students

345
00:23:16,928 --> 00:23:19,231
as a teacher.

346
00:23:19,264 --> 00:23:25,203
Right now, you are developing some
other strategies about learning, I think.

347
00:23:25,237 --> 00:23:26,772
Can you talk about that part?

348
00:23:26,805 --> 00:23:30,642
I know you're doing a work
about universal design for learning.

349
00:23:30,642 --> 00:23:32,677
Absolutely.
Yes, absolutely.

350
00:23:32,711 --> 00:23:38,583
Again, this This concept of
universal design for learning, UDL,

351
00:23:39,184 --> 00:23:44,289
has been around quite some time,
and I in no way want to 

352
00:23:44,756 --> 00:23:48,326
claim primacy in terms of 
bringing it to music issues.

353
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:54,466
There are actually some other music scholars, 
I should name Reba Wissner for one

354
00:23:54,466 --> 00:23:58,303
and maybe we'll link her work out,
who has been really working very hard

355
00:23:58,336 --> 00:24:03,475
to make UDL visible within music.

356
00:24:03,909 --> 00:24:08,113
But the principle aspect
of Universal Design for Learning,

357
00:24:08,146 --> 00:24:11,516
which again, maybe some other guests
may talk about at some point

358
00:24:11,550 --> 00:24:18,457
in this podcast, is the idea that there
should be flexibility in the way somebody

359
00:24:18,490 --> 00:24:22,961
approaches learning more broadly defined.

360
00:24:22,994 --> 00:24:26,331
So there should be multiple ways
to gain information.

361
00:24:26,364 --> 00:24:29,468
There should be multiple ways
to demonstrate that one

362
00:24:29,501 --> 00:24:31,403
has acquired that information.

363
00:24:31,436 --> 00:24:37,809
And there should be multiple ways
for somebody to come to information

364
00:24:37,843 --> 00:24:40,378
or learning being meaningful to them.

365
00:24:40,378 --> 00:24:43,048
This last one is actually
the one that I find most fascinating.

366
00:24:43,081 --> 00:24:49,721
Because the first two, in a way, a lot
of that has been done over the years.

367
00:24:49,754 --> 00:24:55,193
Again, a lot of this is
relatively new theorizing of things

368
00:24:55,227 --> 00:24:57,462
that have been done for a long time.

369
00:24:57,462 --> 00:25:01,900
I should say here, as a side
note, my mother's specialization

370
00:25:01,933 --> 00:25:04,236
is early childhood education.

371
00:25:04,603 --> 00:25:10,942
One of the areas or one of the
models that she worked with a great deal

372
00:25:10,976 --> 00:25:13,979
is an early childhood model
from Reggio Emilia, 

373
00:25:13,979 --> 00:25:19,217
which is this small city in Northern Italy,
which after the Second World War,

374
00:25:19,251 --> 00:25:23,688
began developing these sensational early
childhood programs, which were student-driven.

375
00:25:23,688 --> 00:25:28,860
They were driven by the kids with
very well-trained facilitator teachers

376
00:25:28,894 --> 00:25:34,266
and especially art, what they call
the Atelier system, which was

377
00:25:34,266 --> 00:25:40,639
You have an artist who helps the students
learn through making art.

378
00:25:40,672 --> 00:25:46,378
It is one of the most
extraordinary, flexible,

379
00:25:46,411 --> 00:25:49,447
ingenious learning systems ever.

380
00:25:49,481 --> 00:25:55,620
Of course, it is not grades-based,
and it's based on the students learning

381
00:25:55,654 --> 00:25:58,123
on their own best ways that they can.

382
00:25:58,156 --> 00:26:04,195
UDL, to some degree, connects to
that principle, where some people,

383
00:26:04,229 --> 00:26:06,998
even though learning styles
per se, you know.

384
00:26:06,998 --> 00:26:10,135
Are you a visual learner?
Are you a text learner?

385
00:26:10,168 --> 00:26:13,972
Those aren't confirmed scientifically.

386
00:26:14,005 --> 00:26:18,677
But it's definitely true that different
ways of engaging with different kinds of media 

387
00:26:18,677 --> 00:26:25,717
can sometimes for multiple people
be more meaningful and more effective.

388
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:30,989
As somebody wants to learn something,
I might learn better on a particular day

389
00:26:31,022 --> 00:26:34,859
by listening to a podcast
like this one or listening to an audiobook

390
00:26:34,893 --> 00:26:39,264
or whatever, and then I might want to go
back and read part of it so that I can

391
00:26:39,297 --> 00:26:42,601
learn through reading and so forth,
so that as many different ways

392
00:26:42,634 --> 00:26:45,136
that you can encounter media is better.

393
00:26:45,170 --> 00:26:52,344
Of course, this was in some ways,
at least, developed to help people

394
00:26:52,344 --> 00:26:57,215
with a variety of different physical
and cognitive strengths.

395
00:26:57,248 --> 00:27:01,519
If your visual perception
is not very good, then you'd better

396
00:27:01,553 --> 00:27:03,722
have really good audio materials.

397
00:27:03,755 --> 00:27:09,094
If your auditory perception is not
good, then you must have resources

398
00:27:09,127 --> 00:27:11,863
that are good for your reading.

399
00:27:11,863 --> 00:27:17,902
But in a sense, that's not
the only people who benefit from having

400
00:27:17,902 --> 00:27:19,237
multiple ways of requiring information.

401
00:27:19,270 --> 00:27:23,875
Likewise, some people, for whatever
reason, are very good at time tests.

402
00:27:23,908 --> 00:27:26,644
They're very good at memorization,
and they can convey things

403
00:27:26,678 --> 00:27:28,046
through memorization.

404
00:27:28,079 --> 00:27:29,981
I, for example, am really bad at that.

405
00:27:30,015 --> 00:27:31,316
I didn't know why.

406
00:27:31,349 --> 00:27:33,852
It's because of the way
that my brain works.

407
00:27:33,885 --> 00:27:36,721
It is why time tests
were always really terrible for me.

408
00:27:36,755 --> 00:27:39,991
Memorizing names and dates
was always terrible for me.

409
00:27:40,025 --> 00:27:43,461
Actually, I developed my own way
of teaching history, which

410
00:27:43,495 --> 00:27:46,831
relied relatively little
on memorization with my students and more

411
00:27:46,831 --> 00:27:50,402
on concepts and connecting concepts
to things, which is the way I learned.

412
00:27:50,402 --> 00:27:56,141
In a way, I UDLed myself
as a young learner, and then

413
00:27:56,174 --> 00:27:58,610
I've passed it on to my students.

414
00:27:58,643 --> 00:28:03,748
Different people will be able to convey
having understood in different ways.

415
00:28:03,782 --> 00:28:06,818
In Italy, I remember there was
a lot of oral examination,

416
00:28:06,851 --> 00:28:10,822
which could be terrifying, but
for some people actually 

417
00:28:10,822 --> 00:28:13,058
was what they got used to and 
they were okay with it.

418
00:28:13,058 --> 00:28:15,760
You are in front of three or four people
and they tell you, Okay, 

419
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,930
Dell'Antonio, tell me about this, this, this.

420
00:28:18,963 --> 00:28:22,233
Some people do really well on that.
Other people do better

421
00:28:22,233 --> 00:28:25,236
in written examinations.
Other people do better with essays.

422
00:28:25,236 --> 00:28:29,140
These are multiple different ways
of conveying information.

423
00:28:29,174 --> 00:28:34,846
This is the second branch of UDL is multiple ways, 
flexible ways of conveying information.

424
00:28:34,846 --> 00:28:37,982
But the third branch about 
multiple ways of accessing, 

425
00:28:37,982 --> 00:28:41,886
of making something relevant 
is really important to me.

426
00:28:41,886 --> 00:28:47,892
In the last few years, as I've been noticing how 
students have been affected by the pandemic 

427
00:28:47,892 --> 00:28:53,131
and by, frankly,
the world being on fire, as my

428
00:28:53,331 --> 00:28:58,937
just now turned 18-year-old stepson says,
it's very hard to focus on things because

429
00:28:58,970 --> 00:29:04,943
there are so many distractions and so many
difficult things happening around us.

430
00:29:04,943 --> 00:29:09,781
It can be difficult to be motivated
to study, to engage with something that 

431
00:29:09,781 --> 00:29:13,551
is not inherently interesting to us.

432
00:29:14,018 --> 00:29:17,388
The tradition has always
been to say, Well, suck it up.

433
00:29:17,388 --> 00:29:20,592
You got to learn this, so learn it
the way I got to make you teach it.

434
00:29:20,625 --> 00:29:22,827
I don't care if you are struggling.

435
00:29:22,861 --> 00:29:26,197
If you can't do it, then you clearly are 
not worthy or not smart enough, 

436
00:29:26,197 --> 00:29:27,832
et cetera, et cetera.

437
00:29:27,832 --> 00:29:35,440
UDL says, No, the way that we can help people
learn is by making things meaningful,

438
00:29:35,473 --> 00:29:40,812
helping them make them meaningful
for themselves, which is

439
00:29:40,812 --> 00:29:47,352
extraordinarily complicated because, of course, 
I can't make something interesting for you.

440
00:29:47,385 --> 00:29:51,823
But if I provide you multiple ways
of thinking about why something

441
00:29:51,823 --> 00:29:57,328
is interesting, then the odds are
that you're going to find it interesting.

442
00:29:57,362 --> 00:29:59,697
It's more likely that you'll find
it interesting than if I just say,

443
00:29:59,731 --> 00:30:03,001
Okay, this is why it's interesting,
or even say, I don't care

444
00:30:03,001 --> 00:30:05,804
if you find it interesting.
Learn it.

445
00:30:05,837 --> 00:30:09,807
Because if you have to learn something that you don't think 
is interesting, that is inherently more difficult.

446
00:30:09,807 --> 00:30:15,947
Again, and some people find strategies and you do it. 
This is something that's very interesting to me.

447
00:30:15,947 --> 00:30:20,552
One of the things that I've been noticing,
so beyond more broadly,

448
00:30:20,585 --> 00:30:24,856
trying to apply these various principles
in my teaching, because

449
00:30:24,856 --> 00:30:28,026
coming back to the fact that many
of the classes I teach have to do

450
00:30:28,059 --> 00:30:31,829
with historically early European repertories, which 

451
00:30:31,829 --> 00:30:36,334
modern, contemporary 21st century 
students often might say, Well,

452
00:30:36,367 --> 00:30:38,369
how is this important to me?

453
00:30:38,403 --> 00:30:40,104
Which is a fair question.

454
00:30:40,371 --> 00:30:42,674
Now, the fact that these repertories
are still played a great deal

455
00:30:42,707 --> 00:30:46,144
and are still very meaningful to a lot
of people means that 

456
00:30:46,144 --> 00:30:48,279
they can still have meaning in the 21st century.

457
00:30:48,313 --> 00:30:53,318
And so the question is, how can
current young students who have not yet

458
00:30:53,351 --> 00:30:57,355
engaged with them very deeply
see if they can find them meaningful?

459
00:30:57,388 --> 00:31:00,225
I asked them, Give it a chance.

460
00:31:00,258 --> 00:31:02,560
Here are a few ways that these
could be meaningful for you,

461
00:31:02,594 --> 00:31:05,864
just like they're meaningful
to people in your generation elsewhere.

462
00:31:05,864 --> 00:31:09,701
That's something more broadly
that I've approached.

463
00:31:09,701 --> 00:31:14,072
But one of the things that I'm working
on right now is a collaborative project

464
00:31:14,105 --> 00:31:19,244
with a colleague who is the head
of our dance area in our Department of

465
00:31:19,244 --> 00:31:23,281
Theater and Dance here at the University
of Texas and College of Fine Arts.

466
00:31:23,314 --> 00:31:26,017
Their name is EG Gionfriddo

467
00:31:26,017 --> 00:31:33,291
and EG is a choreographer, primarily, he teaches
primarily ensemble, choreography classes,

468
00:31:33,324 --> 00:31:42,533
also helps and directs production classes
in the Department of Theater and Dance.

469
00:31:42,533 --> 00:31:48,273
They're an applied person, primarily,
and I'm primarily a classroom person.

470
00:31:48,306 --> 00:31:52,710
We're both very interested in
the question of how do we help students

471
00:31:52,744 --> 00:31:55,713
learning community in an inclusive way.

472
00:31:55,747 --> 00:31:58,950
Back to this idea
of intersectional belonging.

473
00:31:59,384 --> 00:32:04,289
And some of it absolutely
has to do with gender and gender identity

474
00:32:04,322 --> 00:32:07,725
and sexuality and ethnicity or race.

475
00:32:07,759 --> 00:32:12,163
And some has to do with ability,
disability, ability,

476
00:32:12,163 --> 00:32:15,900
however we define the thing,
the way your body mind can and can't do

477
00:32:15,933 --> 00:32:19,470
certain things,
which of these things can be

478
00:32:19,504 --> 00:32:24,642
built and learned building on strength,
which of these things need to be

479
00:32:24,642 --> 00:32:29,847
accommodated and remanaged because
your body mind right now cannot do those things.

480
00:32:29,847 --> 00:32:33,084
And which of these things
are essential for you to be able to do?

481
00:32:33,117 --> 00:32:36,321
Or which What are these
things can you negotiate?

482
00:32:36,354 --> 00:32:39,490
Back to this idea of access
you were saying earlier about -

483
00:32:39,490 --> 00:32:41,392
access is about negotiation.

484
00:32:41,426 --> 00:32:44,595
Is which of these situations in this space

485
00:32:44,629 --> 00:32:48,766
in this time, in this location, are just

486
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,971
a nonstarter that you cannot function in
this space, given your body mind?

487
00:32:53,004 --> 00:32:56,040
Which of these are, it's not
going to be great, 

488
00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:02,814
but I can deal with a half an hour of this if it's
the good enough reason for me to do it.

489
00:33:02,847 --> 00:33:08,486
What's the incentive for me to put through
a half an hour of physical discomfort,

490
00:33:08,519 --> 00:33:12,423
if in the end, perhaps,
then we can get the next half hour,

491
00:33:12,423 --> 00:33:15,626
we can change the circumstances,
we can turn off the florist of lights,

492
00:33:15,660 --> 00:33:20,431
whatever it is that is
difficult for various people.

493
00:33:20,465 --> 00:33:23,735
But one of the big pieces
that we're working on...

494
00:33:23,768 --> 00:33:28,639
Our project has to do with how do you
design syllabi, how do you design courses

495
00:33:28,673 --> 00:33:35,813
to create this idea of belonging,
but also ideas of accountability.

496
00:33:35,847 --> 00:33:39,417
This is something that is tricky because

497
00:33:39,450 --> 00:33:43,087
particularly performing arts, we count -

498
00:33:43,087 --> 00:33:49,060
when we're on an ensemble of any sort, a production,
we have to have our collaborators there.

499
00:33:49,093 --> 00:33:52,597
If a collaborator is not there,
then we can't do a rehearsal, we can't

500
00:33:52,630 --> 00:33:56,334
do a performance, or at least
that's made more complicated.

501
00:33:56,367 --> 00:34:00,505
As a performer, you are accountable to
the people with whom you are working

502
00:34:00,505 --> 00:34:03,741
to be part of the group as much as you can.

503
00:34:03,741 --> 00:34:07,211
But also the community is accountable
to the individual if the individual

504
00:34:07,245 --> 00:34:10,281
has moments in which they
cannot be physically present.

505
00:34:10,314 --> 00:34:15,253
And so how do we
translate that into teaching?

506
00:34:15,319 --> 00:34:19,624
There's so much of teaching
that is focused on attendance.

507
00:34:19,657 --> 00:34:22,126
You must be present in order to learn.

508
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:26,764
For a long time, I've discarded that.

509
00:34:26,798 --> 00:34:31,502
That was one of the very first pieces
of UDL, particularly with the pandemic,

510
00:34:31,536 --> 00:34:36,307
with the shutdown, from when
we were all online, our university

511
00:34:36,340 --> 00:34:39,377
was online in the fall 2020, spring 2021.

512
00:34:39,410 --> 00:34:42,513
From that point on,
I've had every class have an alternative

513
00:34:42,513 --> 00:34:48,352
non-in-person assignment for every session
because people are sick,

514
00:34:48,386 --> 00:34:54,725
because people are...
And I've also determined that in some classes,

515
00:34:54,759 --> 00:34:58,396
if enough people aren't there,
then it's hard to get the energy

516
00:34:58,429 --> 00:35:01,999
of the class going to do the thing.

517
00:35:02,066 --> 00:35:07,004
Worse still, some students decide, Oh,
well, I'll just do the other assignment.

518
00:35:07,038 --> 00:35:09,974
Then they're overwhelmed, they don't.

519
00:35:10,007 --> 00:35:15,112
Then they become disconnected
from the class because they're not there

520
00:35:15,146 --> 00:35:19,050
to be held up by the class,
but also not doing the work

521
00:35:19,050 --> 00:35:21,586
that they could be doing instead.

522
00:35:21,986 --> 00:35:25,156
We are, in the next couple
of years, working with a couple

523
00:35:25,156 --> 00:35:27,959
of colleagues, we're building
a small cohort of instructors.

524
00:35:27,992 --> 00:35:30,561
We're going to try to experiment
in various ways that we can create

525
00:35:30,561 --> 00:35:34,532
an intrinsic motivation to be in community

526
00:35:34,565 --> 00:35:39,437
to learn, but also an intrinsic motivation

527
00:35:40,338 --> 00:35:44,542
where there's compassion and
accommodation built in so that if you

528
00:35:44,542 --> 00:35:50,014
cannot be there, you are not
inherently penalized or judged.

529
00:35:50,047 --> 00:35:52,517
There has to be trust in every direction.

530
00:35:52,550 --> 00:35:57,288
The instructor has to trust the student
to be there whenever they can,

531
00:35:57,321 --> 00:36:02,260
and the student has to trust
their classmates to be there with them

532
00:36:02,293 --> 00:36:04,195
because one learns a community.

533
00:36:04,228 --> 00:36:07,365
I I think that's one of the valuable
things about the performing arts,

534
00:36:07,398 --> 00:36:13,404
and certainly about residential university
life, is that learning community,

535
00:36:13,437 --> 00:36:19,110
discussion, dialog, conversation,
it's different from learning from reading,

536
00:36:19,143 --> 00:36:21,012
it's different from learning
from recording.

537
00:36:21,045 --> 00:36:24,916
I think that is where the value
of university and the performing arts

538
00:36:24,949 --> 00:36:28,119
continues to be really crucial
in creating community.

539
00:36:28,152 --> 00:36:33,858
The question is, how do you juggle that
with the reality of some people 

540
00:36:33,858 --> 00:36:36,527
not being able to be physically present?

541
00:36:36,561 --> 00:36:43,000
Can you have a synchronous
online participation?

542
00:36:43,034 --> 00:36:48,072
As we did, frankly, when we were all
in lockdown, that worked pretty well.

543
00:36:48,272 --> 00:36:53,911
It is tricky I did have a class the next year when 
some people came back and said they didn't want to.

544
00:36:53,911 --> 00:36:57,715
We were masked in class,
and then other students

545
00:36:57,748 --> 00:36:59,784
participated online through Zoom.

546
00:36:59,784 --> 00:37:01,919
That worked mostly okay.

547
00:37:01,953 --> 00:37:07,758
We did, again, the issue of how do you
create the dynamic between four or five

548
00:37:07,792 --> 00:37:11,862
people in a classroom and four or five
people on Zoom in terms of communication.

549
00:37:11,862 --> 00:37:17,935
All this to say the long winding way
to say, this is one of these wonderful

550
00:37:17,969 --> 00:37:23,040
problems of community that I think in
the performing arts, we have the model.

551
00:37:23,074 --> 00:37:26,877
Students in the performing arts
understand that an ensemble

552
00:37:26,911 --> 00:37:29,280
needs to be together to play.

553
00:37:29,313 --> 00:37:34,251
Therefore, when you are participating
in an ensemble, you have responsibility

554
00:37:34,251 --> 00:37:39,223
to your ensemble mates to make
the ensemble work as an ensemble.

555
00:37:39,257 --> 00:37:44,095
Can we transfer that into academic courses
where people often don't think 

556
00:37:44,095 --> 00:37:49,867
of the idea that we're learning to be historians
together, which we are, which actually is

557
00:37:49,867 --> 00:37:51,502
that's how you learn to be a historian.

558
00:37:51,502 --> 00:37:54,438
But a lot of students will
come into college thinking, Well,

559
00:37:54,472 --> 00:37:57,975
it's just a bunch of names and dates.
I can learn that by myself.

560
00:37:57,975 --> 00:38:02,146
That's the least important thing, first of all, because 
I don't want to memorize names and dates, because I can't.

561
00:38:02,146 --> 00:38:05,549
This is a project, again,
I'll give you a link to it.

562
00:38:05,583 --> 00:38:09,553
It's a project sponsored
by our university.

563
00:38:09,553 --> 00:38:11,922
We have this wonderful program
that they call

564
00:38:11,922 --> 00:38:14,759
the Provost's Teaching Fellows,
which provides a little bit of money

565
00:38:14,792 --> 00:38:18,062
for the faculty member,
but also a little bit of money

566
00:38:18,095 --> 00:38:21,966
to compensate others,
whether students or colleagues,

567
00:38:21,999 --> 00:38:26,804
to do something that is going to be
meaningful to the teaching enterprise.

568
00:38:26,837 --> 00:38:28,572
It's a three-year project.

569
00:38:28,572 --> 00:38:32,343
The one that I'm doing with EJ is
the first one that's been approved in the

570
00:38:32,376 --> 00:38:35,446
10-year program that is a team project.

571
00:38:35,479 --> 00:38:37,148
There's two of us.

572
00:38:37,214 --> 00:38:42,920
I've been realizing, again, as somebody,
as a musicologist who's trained to work by myself, 

573
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:47,958
to do my own research, to go
to my own archives, that was definitely

574
00:38:47,992 --> 00:38:50,961
what music culture training
was in the end of the previous century.

575
00:38:50,995 --> 00:38:54,665
Hard for me to say that,
but that's when I did music training.

576
00:38:54,699 --> 00:38:58,335
Still to the present day, people think
about, Well, we write our individual articles, 

577
00:38:58,335 --> 00:39:00,371
we write individual books.

578
00:39:00,404 --> 00:39:04,975
But collaborative work, I've realized,
is incredibly meaningful for me.

579
00:39:04,975 --> 00:39:08,579
I think in our field, I wish we did more of it.

580
00:39:08,579 --> 00:39:11,682
Again, I love how through this podcast,
you're building this idea

581
00:39:11,682 --> 00:39:17,154
of conversation, collaboration
as creating really important work

582
00:39:17,188 --> 00:39:22,493
so that we don't feel like each of us
has to do it on our own.

583
00:39:22,493 --> 00:39:24,495
This is actually one of the things...

584
00:39:24,495 --> 00:39:28,099
People ask me, Well, what research
are you doing right now?

585
00:39:29,367 --> 00:39:33,437
For several years, I was a part-time administrator,
I was an associate Dean,

586
00:39:33,437 --> 00:39:36,674
I helped coordinate I did undergraduate
studies for College of Fine Arts.

587
00:39:36,674 --> 00:39:39,744
I did very little research
during that time, but that was the time

588
00:39:39,777 --> 00:39:42,446
when I was really starting to
develop my UDL pedagogy, 

589
00:39:42,446 --> 00:39:44,982
thinking a lot about disability 
issues and so forth.

590
00:39:44,982 --> 00:39:48,152
Now, having gone back to full-time
teaching for a few years,

591
00:39:48,185 --> 00:39:51,455
really, the research I'm doing is
the pedagogy that I'm doing,

592
00:39:51,489 --> 00:39:55,259
is the activism that I'm doing,
are the conversations,

593
00:39:55,292 --> 00:40:00,965
and some of it is resulting in written
formal, what's that thing called,

594
00:40:00,998 --> 00:40:02,967
peer-reviewed stuff.

595
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,570
And some of it is not. 
Then on the flip side, 

596
00:40:06,604 --> 00:40:09,640
I had the privilege of collaborating
with a colleague, William Cheng,

597
00:40:09,673 --> 00:40:15,780
on a series of books from Michigan Press
called Music and Social Justice,

598
00:40:15,813 --> 00:40:22,520
of which actually, you probably saw this,
we just published a volume on the...

599
00:40:22,553 --> 00:40:26,457
Why can't I remember the name of it now?

600
00:40:27,992 --> 00:40:35,432
That software partly developed by
Pauline Oliveros, AUMI.

601
00:40:35,432 --> 00:40:38,702
I remember when that proposal came through
four or five years ago, and I said,

602
00:40:38,736 --> 00:40:41,205
Oh, my God, this is fantastic.

603
00:40:41,238 --> 00:40:46,177
That's also something that
I feel I'm doing is...

604
00:40:47,111 --> 00:40:51,382
The other people involved in
creating the series were also 

605
00:40:51,382 --> 00:40:53,584
happy about it, but I was very enthusiastic.

606
00:40:53,617 --> 00:40:59,323
I said, This is a really interesting model
for a scholar book, but also which is

607
00:40:59,356 --> 00:41:05,129
clearly community-engaged, clearly
bringing in folks, disabled folks,

608
00:41:05,162 --> 00:41:10,067
who are trying to make sense
of what this musical tool might be.

609
00:41:10,100 --> 00:41:17,007
That's another thing. I guess I feel like that's mine, too, 
even though I didn't write any of it, because

610
00:41:17,041 --> 00:41:24,415
I was able to make a really strong case
for going ahead with it and

611
00:41:24,448 --> 00:41:28,085
encouraging them, even as they undertook
this really complicated project.

612
00:41:28,118 --> 00:41:31,055
At the same time, of course,
I was mainly opening the space for it,

613
00:41:31,055 --> 00:41:32,289
and then other people did the work.

614
00:41:32,323 --> 00:41:38,162
I feel like a lot of where I am right now
is there, is that I'm in a place 

615
00:41:38,162 --> 00:41:42,700
where I can open up spaces, and then amazing
people are doing this work, and then

616
00:41:42,733 --> 00:41:45,703
I can be really delighted about that.

617
00:41:45,703 --> 00:41:50,074
For this particular work,
I was very happy that it was done

618
00:41:50,107 --> 00:41:51,876
because this is an old project.

619
00:41:51,909 --> 00:41:55,412
I've been working with AUMI since...

620
00:41:55,679 --> 00:42:01,552
It existed way longer
before I started using it.

621
00:42:01,585 --> 00:42:07,491
I found it a really interesting
collaborative tool for children

622
00:42:07,525 --> 00:42:13,130
to make them understand that music
could be played without touch.

623
00:42:13,163 --> 00:42:19,303
When you started editing
this project, first of all,

624
00:42:19,303 --> 00:42:20,938
yes, for those who are using it.

625
00:42:20,971 --> 00:42:26,710
We all got to this little note
that says, Oh, there is a project

626
00:42:26,744 --> 00:42:34,919
that is reviving that AUMI, and all articles
and conversations about how to use it.

627
00:42:34,919 --> 00:42:37,488
It was fantastic.
Good job, really.

628
00:42:37,488 --> 00:42:42,760
It's a great book
and it gives lots of ideas, too.

629
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,496
It's like, Oh, yeah, I never
thought of using it that way, or I never

630
00:42:45,529 --> 00:42:48,365
thought of this as this perspective.

631
00:42:48,399 --> 00:42:53,537
It ties to your UDL work because it's
really about when you think of

632
00:42:53,537 --> 00:42:58,442
Universal Design itself, which comes before 
Universal Design for Learning, 

633
00:42:58,442 --> 00:43:04,615
it's to build a tool or to design a product that 

634
00:43:04,615 --> 00:43:10,888
can be used by a multitude of people and that can
maybe transform the way you would

635
00:43:10,921 --> 00:43:14,458
use a traditional such tool.

636
00:43:14,458 --> 00:43:16,760
So yeah, it really...

637
00:43:17,061 --> 00:43:18,395
It comes to your...

638
00:43:18,429 --> 00:43:23,601
It's really linked to this Universal Design for 
Learning work that you're doing, too.

639
00:43:23,801 --> 00:43:25,169
Yeah.

640
00:43:25,202 --> 00:43:30,674
Again, I've been familiar with the AUMI
before the proposal came through.

641
00:43:30,708 --> 00:43:34,945
I remember playing around
because I've been

642
00:43:34,945 --> 00:43:37,381
admiring Pauline Oliveros' work for a long time.

643
00:43:37,381 --> 00:43:42,252
I heard that she had been involved
in this experimental instrument, which,

644
00:43:42,286 --> 00:43:47,992
again, from the very beginning was 
meant to rethink 

645
00:43:47,992 --> 00:43:53,530
the way music would be made from a non-classical

646
00:43:53,530 --> 00:43:57,401
and non-standard body and mind way.

647
00:43:57,434 --> 00:44:01,739
I'm glad that the book can make
this whole project more visible because

648
00:44:01,739 --> 00:44:04,975
I think within certain communities,
I mean you clearly knew about it as well, 

649
00:44:04,975 --> 00:44:08,278
within certain communities, AUMI is fairly well known.

650
00:44:08,312 --> 00:44:14,418
But I think the broader significance of it
with the possibility of AUMI work being

651
00:44:14,451 --> 00:44:20,891
done across body-mind types, so that
it's not just people who are identified

652
00:44:20,924 --> 00:44:24,561
as disabled, who have certain kinds
of disabilities who can use it.

653
00:44:24,561 --> 00:44:27,297
But no, this is a musical tool

654
00:44:27,331 --> 00:44:32,202
that can transcend particular ideas about

655
00:44:32,236 --> 00:44:35,439
ability and disability collaboration.

656
00:44:35,472 --> 00:44:39,276
For example, there are times
there's a class that I love teaching

657
00:44:39,309 --> 00:44:42,579
about music and disability,
and we talk about the various ways that

658
00:44:42,613 --> 00:44:46,617
adaptive instruments and adaptive music
making has been configured.

659
00:44:46,650 --> 00:44:52,056
You have orchestras that incorporate one
or two instruments or ensembles that are

660
00:44:52,089 --> 00:44:58,462
ally with orchestras that do orchestra
repertory, but with a set of people

661
00:44:58,462 --> 00:45:02,733
using adaptive instruments of various
sources, people who are visibly disabled,

662
00:45:02,766 --> 00:45:05,402
playing instruments that adapted for them.

663
00:45:05,436 --> 00:45:09,239
That's one, and that is still
the presentational basis of

664
00:45:09,273 --> 00:45:11,608
an orchestra of professional musicians.

665
00:45:11,642 --> 00:45:16,213
Phenomenal work being done by professional musicians 
with disabilities, of course with RAMPD, which

666
00:45:16,213 --> 00:45:19,883
 I've been so impressed with the work that 
you and others have done with RAMPD.

667
00:45:19,883 --> 00:45:25,556
Then there's the other side of, Okay, well, these are 
things that we do for the special education kids.

668
00:45:25,556 --> 00:45:28,492
It's an entirely different,
segregated thing.

669
00:45:28,525 --> 00:45:32,696
What I like about AUMI is that it kind of 
blows up that distinction

670
00:45:32,730 --> 00:45:35,099
for better or for worse.

671
00:45:35,199 --> 00:45:38,735
That's another area
that's worth exploring.

672
00:45:38,735 --> 00:45:45,042
I've been delighted. I remember seeing in 
your presentation that you gave about a year ago, I guess,

673
00:45:45,075 --> 00:45:47,478
about that you were using AUMI
in the schools with the kids,

674
00:45:47,511 --> 00:45:49,413
and I thought, Oh, wow, fantastic.

675
00:45:49,446 --> 00:45:51,682
We have all these cool connections.

676
00:45:51,715 --> 00:45:55,652
Yeah, but that's also what we're doing.
We're networking.

677
00:45:56,053 --> 00:45:58,889
That fairly very well.

678
00:45:58,889 --> 00:46:00,057
Yeah.

679
00:46:00,958 --> 00:46:03,327
Okay. Thank you so much for all that.

680
00:46:03,327 --> 00:46:05,229
I have a last question before...

681
00:46:05,229 --> 00:46:09,066
Last question before we wrap it up,

682
00:46:09,066 --> 00:46:14,071
which is about people who might have inspired you 

683
00:46:14,071 --> 00:46:17,474
or motivated you in your career

684
00:46:17,474 --> 00:46:22,112
and who you really think of when you're
thinking of everything you've done.

685
00:46:22,146 --> 00:46:29,119
If you had one or two names
to give, who would it be and why?

686
00:46:29,119 --> 00:46:34,625
Sure. I remember, so you were kind enough
to send me a few questions

687
00:46:34,625 --> 00:46:37,594
to think about before this conversation,
and I remember getting to that question

688
00:46:37,594 --> 00:46:40,964
thinking, Oh, damn it.
How can I possibly?

689
00:46:40,998 --> 00:46:45,068
What's interesting to me is that the people, 
and I'm going to name a couple of people, 

690
00:46:45,068 --> 00:46:47,237
they're all people who are younger than me.

691
00:46:47,271 --> 00:46:51,708
In a way, they're not so much people who have

692
00:46:51,708 --> 00:46:55,546
helped me come to this point
when I was younger,

693
00:46:55,579 --> 00:47:01,685
but there are people who now
I see as really taking things to the next level 

694
00:47:01,685 --> 00:47:05,956
and inspiring me, literally,

695
00:47:05,989 --> 00:47:09,493
in what they are doing that is

696
00:47:09,526 --> 00:47:11,628
well beyond what I could ever do.

697
00:47:11,662 --> 00:47:16,767
So, of course, one person I wanted
to make sure to mention 

698
00:47:16,767 --> 00:47:20,737
is Elizabeth McLain, who is a Virginia Tech.

699
00:47:20,737 --> 00:47:24,441
I suspect that sooner or later you will have 
a conversation with her on this podcast.

700
00:47:24,441 --> 00:47:30,113
She is an extraordinary scholar, disabled
scholar, a multi-disabled scholar,

701
00:47:30,147 --> 00:47:36,253
who got her PhD on writing and musicology,

702
00:47:36,286 --> 00:47:43,060
theory musicology on a topic that is 
extremely canonical in a way.

703
00:47:43,060 --> 00:47:48,932
And yet, even as she has done that work
over the last five, six, seven years,

704
00:47:48,966 --> 00:47:54,438
has become, I think the most visible 
US scholar of disability studies 

705
00:47:54,438 --> 00:47:59,710
in terms of cross-disciplinary disability work.

706
00:47:59,710 --> 00:48:03,580
And just everything that she does in
the way that she does it 

707
00:48:03,580 --> 00:48:09,253
is so deeply ethical and 
so smart and so inventive.

708
00:48:09,286 --> 00:48:14,057
And in the face of extraordinary 
medical ableism

709
00:48:14,057 --> 00:48:18,095
 and pretty significant 
academic ableism as well, 

710
00:48:18,095 --> 00:48:22,633
she's not minimizing
the difficulties then hanging in there

711
00:48:22,666 --> 00:48:27,137
and really building her own work
and bringing other people along.

712
00:48:27,170 --> 00:48:30,340
Through Elizabeth, the other person
I want to mention is Gaelynn Lea,

713
00:48:30,340 --> 00:48:34,378
whose work is entirely different in a way
because as a performer, 

714
00:48:34,378 --> 00:48:41,084
she's certainly an intellectually deep performer, 
but her work is really advocacy and performance.

715
00:48:41,118 --> 00:48:45,055
Again, I'm sure you mentioned this elsewhere,

716
00:48:45,088 --> 00:48:49,559
Diane, but her co-founding of RAMPD is,
I think, one of the most significant

717
00:48:49,593 --> 00:48:54,498
things that's happened in the last several
years, and her continuing work through

718
00:48:54,531 --> 00:48:57,334
social media as well, on her Patreon.

719
00:48:57,367 --> 00:49:01,938
She has these meetings where she invites

720
00:49:01,938 --> 00:49:05,943
musicians with disability studies
people, and they're often very small.

721
00:49:05,943 --> 00:49:09,880
The investment of time is significant
for her to have four or five people on a Zoom, 

722
00:49:09,913 --> 00:49:13,984
but she's there opening spaces 
and teaching and so forth.

723
00:49:13,984 --> 00:49:17,354
I wanted to mention a third person,
if you can, squeezing one more person,

724
00:49:17,387 --> 00:49:19,623
and this is Stephanie Ban.

725
00:49:19,623 --> 00:49:24,995
Steph is a graduate of the University
of Chicago, an independent scholar.

726
00:49:25,028 --> 00:49:30,500
She actually works in access,
disability access, specifically, 

727
00:49:30,500 --> 00:49:35,172
doing primarily what's called plain language work.

728
00:49:35,172 --> 00:49:38,408
Plain language is this phenomenal approach

729
00:49:38,442 --> 00:49:41,878
where you acknowledge that

730
00:49:41,878 --> 00:49:45,082
language is an aspect of access.

731
00:49:45,115 --> 00:49:50,454
People with intellectual disabilities or
first language learners or a variety of other folks

732
00:49:50,454 --> 00:49:53,690
deserve to receive information that is

733
00:49:53,724 --> 00:49:59,096
nuanced and complex and not simplified,
but in a language that is not

734
00:49:59,129 --> 00:50:03,934
inaccessible, that is not highfalutin, is not

735
00:50:03,934 --> 00:50:06,636
necessarily university-trained language.

736
00:50:06,670 --> 00:50:10,707
I've been very interested
in plain language as a facet

737
00:50:10,707 --> 00:50:14,578
of UDL, and Steph works in
plain language in the UDL world.

738
00:50:14,611 --> 00:50:18,882
But she also writes, has been publishing
extensively on music and disability.

739
00:50:18,915 --> 00:50:22,285
Her own training is not
technically in music.

740
00:50:22,319 --> 00:50:28,759
She's a history bachelor major, but she is 
an extremely sensitive musician,

741
00:50:28,759 --> 00:50:35,499
even though she was denied the opportunity
to learn to actually play music herself.

742
00:50:35,532 --> 00:50:38,969
It's just an interesting counter example
to Gaelynn Lea.

743
00:50:39,002 --> 00:50:44,474
Gaelynn, very famously in her own
telling her own story, had a teacher

744
00:50:44,508 --> 00:50:48,445
who perceived her as being musically
very interested and very talented

745
00:50:48,445 --> 00:50:53,583
and helped her develop an adaptive approach
to learning how to play music.

746
00:50:53,583 --> 00:50:58,455
Steph was told that given her body,
she couldn't play music.

747
00:50:58,488 --> 00:51:04,061
And still, she is extremely musically
thoughtful, very interested in issues

748
00:51:04,061 --> 00:51:05,662
of philosophy, disability, and music.

749
00:51:05,695 --> 00:51:09,866
And so she and I have
collaborated a few times.

750
00:51:10,233 --> 00:51:16,173
She is inspiring because she is creating
a space for her scholarship that is,

751
00:51:16,173 --> 00:51:19,076
first of all, plain language
informed, second of all, highly ethical,

752
00:51:19,109 --> 00:51:24,648
and third of all, that does not
need academia for a scholarship.

753
00:51:24,681 --> 00:51:27,551
This is another piece of UDL
that I think is really important

754
00:51:27,584 --> 00:51:31,755
is access is also about,
can you get admitted into programs

755
00:51:31,755 --> 00:51:34,458
and can you successfully complete programs?

756
00:51:34,491 --> 00:51:37,727
And Diane, as somebody who's writing a dissertation, 

757
00:51:37,727 --> 00:51:41,498
you know very well what extraordinary

758
00:51:41,531 --> 00:51:44,534
hurdle a dissertation is for any human being,

759
00:51:44,534 --> 00:51:48,105
let alone somebody who, for whatever reason, 
has not been encouraged

760
00:51:48,105 --> 00:51:50,373
or given the support that they need.

761
00:51:50,407 --> 00:51:55,378
Steph has basically said she
knows she could not succeed in academia,

762
00:51:55,378 --> 00:51:56,880
given the ableism in academia.

763
00:51:56,913 --> 00:52:00,884
And still, she has the capacity
and the determination 

764
00:52:00,884 --> 00:52:06,089
and the networking skills to get support 
and get published all sorts of places,

765
00:52:06,123 --> 00:52:13,563
which I think is a great
example of how we can be

766
00:52:13,597 --> 00:52:18,301
cognizant of the work that can be done
by public intellectuals who are not

767
00:52:18,301 --> 00:52:21,204
officially within academia.

768
00:52:21,238 --> 00:52:24,541
Academics are extremely possessive
of their academic spaces.

769
00:52:24,541 --> 00:52:28,912
My colleagues themselves,
I've had trouble convincing them.

770
00:52:28,945 --> 00:52:32,015
Steph is not an example of this,
but one of our graduate students

771
00:52:32,048 --> 00:52:37,687
wanted to bring a non-PhD specialist in
as a member of their doctoral committee.

772
00:52:37,721 --> 00:52:40,891
My colleagues said, No, he doesn't have to be a PhD, 
he can't be part of the doctoral committee.

773
00:52:40,891 --> 00:52:44,928
I was flabbergasted because this person
they were bringing in,

774
00:52:44,961 --> 00:52:49,499
wanted to bring in, was one of the most
recognized experts 

775
00:52:49,499 --> 00:52:54,004
in their particular area of musical practice 
and even social work,

776
00:52:54,037 --> 00:52:58,675
but they didn't have a doctoral degree,
and so they couldn't be in a doctoral committee.

777
00:52:58,675 --> 00:53:01,978
This is something, another piece
of access that I'm really interested in,

778
00:53:01,978 --> 00:53:05,782
and I'm still trying to figure out
how to help facilitate, but I really

779
00:53:05,782 --> 00:53:09,553
value the work people are doing
who are not within an official academia.

780
00:53:09,586 --> 00:53:12,522
Steph is somebody who I know who does
the work, and so I love collaborating

781
00:53:12,522 --> 00:53:15,659
with her and boosting the work.

782
00:53:16,126 --> 00:53:22,265
I think I may be able to give you a link or two to 
her work if readers are interested in reading it.

783
00:53:22,265 --> 00:53:24,534
Oh, yes, I would join that.

784
00:53:24,568 --> 00:53:28,471
Of course, all that will be published 
on ArtsAbly's website.

785
00:53:28,505 --> 00:53:31,541
But yeah, these are all fantastic people.

786
00:53:31,575 --> 00:53:36,479
I know them also, and - 
But it's true that

787
00:53:36,513 --> 00:53:40,817
when you know the story behind the person

788
00:53:40,850 --> 00:53:48,124
and how they can make this academic
or non-academic world a bit better,

789
00:53:48,158 --> 00:53:52,228
it's refreshing and it's hopeful.

790
00:53:52,495 --> 00:53:54,831
Thank you so much for all that.

791
00:53:54,864 --> 00:53:58,335
Thank you for being here today with us.
Thank you so much.

792
00:53:58,335 --> 00:54:00,570
My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Yes.

793
00:54:00,570 --> 00:54:01,871
Great conversation.

794
00:54:01,905 --> 00:54:03,506
It's always lovely.

795
00:54:03,540 --> 00:54:08,011
I should say I hope you can leave 
this in for the listeners that 

796
00:54:08,011 --> 00:54:12,716
having conversations with Diane is something that 
I've had the pleasure of doing now for a few years.

797
00:54:12,749 --> 00:54:18,221
I always come away from conversations
with Diane refreshed and energized.

798
00:54:18,221 --> 00:54:21,791
Thank you for doing this work.
Looking forward to the next conversation.

799
00:54:21,825 --> 00:54:25,362
Yes, thank you.
I'm looking forward to it, too.

800
00:54:25,362 --> 00:54:27,430
Have a great day and talk soon.

801
00:54:27,430 --> 00:54:28,732
Thank you.
Bye.

802
00:54:28,732 --> 00:54:30,300
Take care.
Bye.

803
00:54:31,268 --> 00:54:36,406
[Closing theme music]