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[Opening theme music]

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Hello and welcome to this episode
of ArtsAbly in Conversation.

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My name is Diane Kolin.

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This series presents artists, academics,
and project leaders who dedicate their

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time and energy to a better accessibility
for people with disabilities in the arts.

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You can find more of these conversations
on our website, artsably.com,

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which is spelled A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com.

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[Theme music]

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Today, ArtsAbly is in conversation
with Rachel Marks, who is a practicing,

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relaxed performance consultant who helps
artistic organizations to welcome the

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neurodiverse and disability communities
to their venues and performances.

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You can find the resources mentioned
by Rachel Marks during this episode

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on ArtsAbly's website in the blog section.

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Hello everybody.

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Welcome to this new episode
of ArtsAbly in Conversation.

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Today I'm with Rachel Marks,
 who is a practicing

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relaxed performance consultant who helps
artistic organizations to welcome the

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neurodiverse and disability communities
to their venues and performances.

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Welcome, Rachel.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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Thank you for being here today.

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Can you tell me a bit
about your background?

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What studies did you do?

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What brought you to what
you're doing today?

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Great, thank you.

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So hi, I'm Rachel Marks.

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I use she and her pronouns.

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First, I'd just like to say that I'm
joining you today from what is currently

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referred to as Leeds and Grenville
county, but is the traditional lands

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of the Haudensaunee, Anishwakee,
Mississauga, and Algonquin peoples.

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This area is covered under
the Crawford Purchase of 1783.

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I'm an immigrant to Canada.

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I moved to Canada when I was seven,
and I am just in awe of the beauty of this

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country and all that has been done
by the traditional caretakers of the land

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to maintain the delicate balance
of ecosystems on the land,

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in the water and in the air.

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And my hope is that I can learn from
those who cared for the land before me

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so that I can continue that work
with the honesty, love and wisdom

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that's been shown by original peoples.

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I'm from a family of theatre artists.

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My grandfather was a playwright
and a producer in the UK and

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my dad was actually a stagehand
and a designer and was one of

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the first people in his small community
to create running water on stage.

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So I guess you could say that theatre's
in my blood, it's part of my history.

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And even though we were very much
into theatre, I did grow up

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on a farm in Niagara-on-the-Lake,
and that's - the Niagara-on-the-Lake

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of the time period that I grew up in
is vastly different from now.

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Viticulture and the Shaw Festival
have taken it to a place of world renown.

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But back then we're all farmers
and the theatre was much smaller

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and it was a great place
to live and grow up 

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and have that natural beauty, 
but also the theatre.

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I got to go to a school
of performing arts.

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And after school and after university,
I worked at many places in Toronto

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in box offices and front of house
in theatres around the city.

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When I began working at Roy Thompson
and Massey Hall in 2000, 

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and towards the end of my time 
there, which was around 2007,

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I had the opportunity to hire artists

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for a lobby event, like a reception.

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And for the very first time
I hired a disabled artist.

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And that was a changing point for me.

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It really was.

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There was these beautiful dancers,
a wheelchair dancer and a non wheelchair

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dancer, and they performed at
this very sort of high end reception.

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And that's when my mindset
began to change.

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Around about that time or shortly
before that, I had been involved

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in an accident and on my way
to work and I had been hit by a car.

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And that changed my life.

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At the time, I didn't know
how the positive,

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I couldn't see the positive things
that had been impacted 

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and I hadn't come to terms with my disability yet,
you know, now look back on that time

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and realize that I had some very ingrained
ableism within myself and, you know,

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that took a while for me to deal with.

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So even though I was working and hiring
disabled artists and had nothing

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but respect for them, when it came
to myself, I was like, oh, wait a minute.

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So once I sort of began that work,

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my whole paradigm shifted.

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Everything changed for me.

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I moved back to the country,
I left the city, 

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I actually took time out of the arts.

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I ran a small theatre school here
in the village that I live in.

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I mean, there's only 350 
people of us, It was small.

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But I began working in autism.

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I worked for an autism agency, 
creating events and learnings 

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for autistic children and youth and their families.

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And I began to really see the way

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that the arts can impact disabled folks

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by being involved in the arts.

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So in 2018, I was extremely lucky
to get into the artist's track

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of the Big Umbrella Festival
at the Lincoln Center in New York City.

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And that was the first month long festival
of arts for autistic children.

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And at that festival,
we had an opportunity to learn

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from companies that were creating sensory
immersive theatre for autistic children

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and children with other disabilities,
which led me to apply to and get in

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to the Oily Cart Training in London, UK, in 2018.

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So Oily Cartt are the company that
kind of started the sensory immersive

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theatre movement and allowing folks
to create pieces specifically

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for neurodiverse children.

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So when I came back from the UK,
I began to combine my work in autism

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with my work in the arts.

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And there was this new Field in Canada.

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I mean, in the UK, relaxed performances
have been around for a long time.

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And really, if we look at original
indigenous presentation in Canada,

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that's the original relaxed performance.

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But what we're talking about today,
this new relaxed performance movement,

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it was very small in Canada.

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It was happening, and it was happening
in these great disability focused

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companies and these companies
that understood that everyone

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should have access to the arts, right?

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It's a basic human right.

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And so relaxed performances
started becoming more widespread.

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And so I had an opportunity to
start consulting on relaxed performances.

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It seemed like the perfect marriage
of my theatre skills and 

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my time and my learnings 
with the autism community.

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So since then, so I think I worked
on my first relaxed performance in 2018.

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Since then, I've had amazing opportunities
to work with the Toronto Symphony Orchestra, 

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the National Ballet of Canada,
the Canadian Opera company, 

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Soulpepper Theatre, 
Harbourfront Centre, 

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and many, many community 
theatre companies as well.

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And I've also had the opportunity to -

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In 2022, I spoke in Belgrade
at the IETM Focus meeting.

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They are a network of contemporary 
arts workers across the world, 

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and I spoke on disability
and working conditions in the arts.

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I've also spoken in the UK
with ticketing professionals.

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And just in March, I had an opportunity 
to lead a workshop

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at Out the Woods Festival in Cape Town.

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So it's great to be able to spread
the love of relaxed performance

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and to work with companies 
and to just keep

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moving towards that idea that the arts are
for everyone, and everyone should have

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access to the arts and be able
to participate freely in the arts.

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Yeah. I am really privileged 
to be able to have found 

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that way in my own career, to move
towards something that 

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I truly believe is, as I said, 
a fundamental human right.

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Thank you.

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And I also wanted to, for the audience 
who is listening to us, 

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what is it exactly,
a relaxed performance?

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And how do you work with the theatres
and venues and festivals to create

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relaxed performances in their spaces?

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Yeah. Thank you for that.

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So a relaxed performance is designed
to be, I'm just gonna say, a kinder,

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gentler version of a show.

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For me, a lot of work, it's pre work.

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So we create a comprehensive venue
guide, which takes folks through

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the entire process of coming to,
attending, and leaving the venue.

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So very venue specific.

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So if a lot of the companies
I work with, they don't maybe

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have their own space, they rent a space.

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So we do create venue guides, even if
it's not the space that the company lives in

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or works - or owns. 

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Things like parking.

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How much does it cost to park,
and how do I pay?

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Because I don't know about you,
but for me, every time I get to a parking lot, 

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if I have a credit card, 
they only take coins.

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If I have coins, they only take cash.

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And that kind of information,
like, if you know it ahead of time,

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it can really make your journey easier.
It's prepping, right?

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Forewarned is forearmed, is that old
saying, and I feel the same.

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So the venue guide
should be very specific.

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For instance, when we did the first one
for the National Ballet.

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So they perform at the
Four Seasons Centre.

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Lovely building.
I believe it was built around 2006, 2008,

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somewhere in that time period. They have
this gorgeous, huge, accessible washroom

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on the second floor, large enough for big 
mobility devices to turn around completely, 

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which, as you know, is rare.

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And so it's great.

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But there's no button.

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There's no push button.

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So, you know, in the guide,
we say, hey, we have this. It's great.

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But we also have to own
that we don't have this button.

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So one of our ushers will gladly open
the door for you if you're by yourself

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or, you know, think of bringing
a family member or caregiver with you

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if you need that assistance and don't want
to ask an usher to open the door for you.

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So the venue guide, venue specific.

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Then we - Oh, and just to note that sometimes
this is called a wayfinding guide,

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and some people use the term visual story.

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I'm going to talk about that later.

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I don't like visual story,
but I use venue guide.

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Then there's a fact sheet.

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So the fact sheet is
content or show specific.

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So, for instance, it could have a few
things about the theatre or the venue,

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but mostly it's about: there's a blackout
here, there's loud sounds here,

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and then also we talk about content.

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So I worked with
the Thousand Islands Playhouse

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in Gananoque and we did Anne of Green
Gables, beloved canadian musical.

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We've spent the whole first act

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falling in love with the adopted father,

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the uncle, and for the name, I can't 
remember his name right now, I'm so sorry.

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And then he dies in the second act.

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And, you know, we're left
to see Anne and Marissa's grief.

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So we really need to talk about
that because that content could be

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something that someone just 
cannot process,

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whether that's situational or whether
that's something that they're

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going through at the moment or that it's really
just something that they're unable

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to process in "entertainment."

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So we put those things down 
because then we're building 

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a successful relationship
with the audience.

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They read that fact sheet and they say,
okay, yes, I'm prepared for this.

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This is a good fit for me.

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Or they read the fact sheet and say,
oh, no, I can't deal with the death

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of a beloved character partway through.

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I'm not going to go to this show.

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So by providing all of this 
information ahead of time, 

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that to me is how we're 
building our relationships.

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So even if the audience member
decides it's not for me, 

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it's still a successful relationship because
they've made the autonomous decision

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that that's not for them.

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I haven't made that decision for them.

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The venue hasn't made
that decision for them.

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We haven't withheld
any information at all.

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We're almost just
loading up all of this information

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which you can choose to read or not.

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That's totally up to folks individually.

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But again, it's about autonomy,
it's about having choice, and it's

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about being able to make decisions
yourself based on all of the factors.

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So, for instance, when I'm chatting
a lot, I use the same example,

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and that is I have low mobility,
stairs are really difficult for me.

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And a lot of restaurants might say, oh,
we're accessible, great, you have chairs

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at the front that I can get into.

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There's a button on the front door.

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But I'm going to go out on a limb here
and say 90% of Toronto restaurants.

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The washroom's downstairs.

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And so, yes, your front
tables are accessible.

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Yes, you have a barrier free,
step free access at the front door.

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But I can't wash my hands,
I can't use the facilities.

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Whereas if I had a venue guide ahead
of time, I might say, oh, you know what?

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I'm going to so and so's house

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after this cocktail, I'm still
going to make the decision

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to go, or you know what?

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This time I'm going to give it a miss.
But who knows?

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00:15:10,542 --> 00:15:14,246
So having that information, I think, is critical.

230
00:15:14,246 --> 00:15:17,249
So relaxed performance
is about giving that information.

231
00:15:17,283 --> 00:15:22,187
Then there's some slight 
technical changes to shows.

232
00:15:22,221 --> 00:15:25,057
For instance, strobing.

233
00:15:25,090 --> 00:15:28,761
We do stop any strobe effects.

234
00:15:28,761 --> 00:15:33,899
Fog might be minimized if there's the use
of fog, or directed differently,

235
00:15:33,932 --> 00:15:38,537
directed completely on stage rather 
than out to the audience, 

236
00:15:38,537 --> 00:15:43,375
perhaps movement through the audience might be limited,
or it's at least announced ahead of time.

237
00:15:43,409 --> 00:15:48,147
So two concerts ago with the TSO -

238
00:15:48,147 --> 00:15:50,382
that's the Toronto Symphony Orchestra. Sorry.

239
00:15:50,416 --> 00:15:53,519
We had dancers coming
down through the aisles.

240
00:15:53,519 --> 00:15:56,055
It was announced at the beginning
of the performance, 

241
00:15:56,055 --> 00:16:00,793
and it was announced again before that piece
started, so that people could prepare.

242
00:16:00,793 --> 00:16:05,097
I also advocate for what
I like to call a self removal plan.

243
00:16:05,130 --> 00:16:08,067
So let's keep those back rows
of the auditorium open, because

244
00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:12,504
if I'm sitting in my seat, I might feel
a little close and I can just

245
00:16:12,538 --> 00:16:15,507
take myself back to the back rows 
if I need more room.

246
00:16:15,507 --> 00:16:19,645
Then maybe I want to go to the lobby
because I just need a break.

247
00:16:19,645 --> 00:16:24,016
Maybe it's playing on a screen
in the lobby, but the sound is lower,

248
00:16:24,049 --> 00:16:28,821
and then maybe I really want a bigger
break, or I need to self regulate.

249
00:16:28,854 --> 00:16:34,226
Then there's a low sensory break space,
which could also be called a quiet room,

250
00:16:34,259 --> 00:16:37,296
a Zen den, a chill out space.

251
00:16:37,329 --> 00:16:42,835
There's many names,
but these are all part and parcel.

252
00:16:42,835 --> 00:16:46,372
We definitely do keep 
house lights on at least 30% 

253
00:16:46,372 --> 00:16:48,841
so that movement can happen safely.

254
00:16:48,874 --> 00:16:57,816
And we do lower any recorded sound to

255
00:16:57,850 --> 00:17:01,420
a decibel level that feels comfortable
within the space.

256
00:17:01,453 --> 00:17:06,592
There is no sort of standard decibel level

257
00:17:06,592 --> 00:17:09,228
because every theatre
and every space is different.

258
00:17:09,261 --> 00:17:13,599
So if I said 60 decibels,
that could be very loud in a small

259
00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:19,471
hundred seat venue, but it could be
extremely quiet in an open air space.

260
00:17:19,505 --> 00:17:22,241
So these are all things
that go into a relaxed performance.

261
00:17:22,241 --> 00:17:27,212
And then if we're able to, we could add on

262
00:17:27,246 --> 00:17:31,850
ASL interpretation, or Deaf
interpretation, or audio description.

263
00:17:31,850 --> 00:17:36,355
There's so many things we could add on,
but the base of a relaxed performance

264
00:17:36,355 --> 00:17:39,024
is what I've just mentioned.

265
00:17:39,057 --> 00:17:40,092
That's awesome.

266
00:17:40,125 --> 00:17:43,862
And that's, I think, this kind
of thing, you can do it and 

267
00:17:43,862 --> 00:17:46,265
you can extend it to conferences.

268
00:17:46,298 --> 00:17:48,033
You can do it.

269
00:17:48,033 --> 00:17:53,205
So maybe the auditors of this podcast

270
00:17:53,205 --> 00:17:56,275
will start thinking of their own situation,

271
00:17:56,275 --> 00:18:00,712
saying, how can I apply that to mine?

272
00:18:01,213 --> 00:18:02,948
How do I work in my university?

273
00:18:02,948 --> 00:18:06,018
How do I work in my theatre?

274
00:18:06,051 --> 00:18:09,121
Do I have people with
disabilities around me?

275
00:18:09,154 --> 00:18:12,024
And what are their access needs?

276
00:18:12,057 --> 00:18:13,425
Yes, exactly.

277
00:18:13,459 --> 00:18:17,729
I'm actually also executive director of an 
organization called Réseau SPARC Network,

278
00:18:17,763 --> 00:18:21,400
and that stands for Supporting Performing 
Arts in Rural & Remote Communities.

279
00:18:21,433 --> 00:18:25,838
We do a symposium, a biennial
symposium, and we just had it

280
00:18:25,838 --> 00:18:30,309
at the end of May, and we had
a low sensory break space set up.

281
00:18:30,342 --> 00:18:34,413
We had one participant said,
I'd prefer to sit on the floor.

282
00:18:34,446 --> 00:18:38,784
So we brought in blankets and pillows, and
we did announce at the beginning of the

283
00:18:38,817 --> 00:18:40,319
conference, this is a relaxed meeting.

284
00:18:40,319 --> 00:18:43,088
Get up, move around, don't
stay seated, take medication,

285
00:18:43,088 --> 00:18:45,624
eat, come back if you need to.

286
00:18:45,657 --> 00:18:51,029
I mean, relaxing processes, to me is
the next step from relaxing performance.

287
00:18:51,063 --> 00:18:55,267
And when we relax process, then we,
by the nature of that,

288
00:18:55,300 --> 00:19:00,906
we become more inclusive for folks
with disabilities, disabled folks,

289
00:19:00,939 --> 00:19:04,776
and for folks from various cultures,
newcomers to the country,

290
00:19:04,810 --> 00:19:12,518
people who may not be familiar with our
"rules" around attending meetings and events.

291
00:19:12,518 --> 00:19:15,587
I see, yeah, definitely.
That's very important.

292
00:19:15,621 --> 00:19:17,055
And it's coming more and more.

293
00:19:17,089 --> 00:19:23,896
So this is a hopeful thing because
I see that happening more and more.

294
00:19:23,929 --> 00:19:27,132
And I also see organizations
doing a lot of great work.

295
00:19:27,165 --> 00:19:30,269
I'm thinking of Xenia Concerts
for the music, for example.

296
00:19:30,302 --> 00:19:32,838
They're doing a fantastic work.
Yeah, really.

297
00:19:32,838 --> 00:19:34,273
Yeah, they're great.

298
00:19:34,273 --> 00:19:40,279
So, speaking of projects, is there a
specific project you're working on right now 

299
00:19:40,279 --> 00:19:45,083
that you could tell us more about
or highlights or something like that?

300
00:19:45,117 --> 00:19:48,120
Sure.
So I have a couple things.

301
00:19:48,153 --> 00:19:54,126
So one is I mentioned before, I said venue
guide, wayfinding guide, visual guide.

302
00:19:54,159 --> 00:19:55,460
So language.

303
00:19:55,494 --> 00:20:01,600
Language around accessibility
in the arts is a huge project for me.

304
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,737
I was lucky enough to receive a seed grant
from Canada Council last year

305
00:20:05,771 --> 00:20:08,840
that enabled me to hire disabled artists

306
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:14,146
and disabled arts lovers and also include

307
00:20:14,179 --> 00:20:19,451
a few organizations who are already
providing access to talk about language.

308
00:20:19,484 --> 00:20:25,390
Right now across the province,
but across the country and even

309
00:20:25,390 --> 00:20:30,529
across the province, we're not
using the same language for things.

310
00:20:30,562 --> 00:20:33,899
So, for instance, some folks
combine a venue guide and a fact sheet

311
00:20:33,932 --> 00:20:37,035
and call it a visual story, because
that's what historically came out of

312
00:20:37,069 --> 00:20:40,172
the UK where relax performance started.

313
00:20:40,205 --> 00:20:43,542
But I'm here to say, no, let's not
use the term visual story, 

314
00:20:43,542 --> 00:20:48,647
because right away, my three points are, 
it's immediately exclusionary of the blind

315
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,116
and partially sighted community.

316
00:20:51,116 --> 00:20:53,251
It's not plain language.

317
00:20:53,285 --> 00:20:56,888
When you go on someone's website
and you don't know what a visual story is

318
00:20:56,888 --> 00:20:59,758
but you're looking for access,
how do you know what to look for?

319
00:20:59,758 --> 00:21:03,695
Whereas a venue guide is a guide
to a venue, it's plain language.

320
00:21:03,729 --> 00:21:05,130
This is the show fact sheet.

321
00:21:05,163 --> 00:21:06,999
It's the facts about the show.

322
00:21:06,999 --> 00:21:08,700
Once again, plain language.

323
00:21:08,734 --> 00:21:15,540
And then finally, my third point is visual
story comes out of intense behavioral

324
00:21:15,574 --> 00:21:18,944
intervention and applied behavioral.

325
00:21:18,977 --> 00:21:20,979
I can't think of what
the last a stands for.

326
00:21:21,013 --> 00:21:25,050
ABA, which are both
"therapies" that are used

327
00:21:25,083 --> 00:21:28,186
with autistic children and now
autistic adults are telling us 

328
00:21:28,186 --> 00:21:30,922
that it's rather cruel and unusual behavior.

329
00:21:30,956 --> 00:21:36,528
So out of solidarity with that community,
I personally no longer use that phrase.

330
00:21:36,561 --> 00:21:40,832
And I feel like I've become like a
one woman advocacy against visual story.

331
00:21:40,866 --> 00:21:45,937
But once I explain it, people
are like, oh yeah, so language.

332
00:21:45,971 --> 00:21:50,575
Why are we putting extra work on the disabled 
patron that wants to come to the arts 

333
00:21:50,575 --> 00:21:53,578
by not using the same language 
across the country

334
00:21:53,612 --> 00:21:57,883
so that it's easier to understand,
easier to access, easier to find?

335
00:21:57,916 --> 00:22:03,488
So that's a huge one for me, and I'm
hopefully going to be able to continue

336
00:22:03,522 --> 00:22:08,927
to work on language and discovering
what works for different 

337
00:22:08,927 --> 00:22:12,597
parts of the disability community, 
what doesn't work.

338
00:22:12,597 --> 00:22:16,735
I'm also working on a 
language piece with ITAC, 

339
00:22:16,735 --> 00:22:19,504
which is the International Teaching Artist Collective.

340
00:22:19,538 --> 00:22:24,343
I'm on the global working group
for disability and accessibility,

341
00:22:24,376 --> 00:22:27,179
and language is something
I'm working on there as well.

342
00:22:27,212 --> 00:22:30,382
It's interesting to see where we are

343
00:22:30,382 --> 00:22:33,885
as Canada moves towards 
a social model of disability 

344
00:22:33,885 --> 00:22:37,756
and away from that person first language
and into identity language.

345
00:22:37,756 --> 00:22:41,860
And it's interesting to see where
we fit in the ecosystem, 

346
00:22:41,860 --> 00:22:44,830
the world ecosystem of language around disability.

347
00:22:44,830 --> 00:22:46,698
Are we leading?
Are we falling behind?

348
00:22:46,732 --> 00:22:48,467
Can we learn from others?

349
00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:49,835
Can we teach others?

350
00:22:49,835 --> 00:22:52,337
So that's a huge one for me.

351
00:22:52,371 --> 00:22:57,075
I'm also super excited to be back
at Stratford festival this summer working

352
00:22:57,075 --> 00:22:59,277
on Wendy and Peter Pan, which is great.

353
00:22:59,277 --> 00:23:00,879
That's coming up in July.

354
00:23:00,879 --> 00:23:05,450
And I'm also working with artist
and producer Erica May-Wood

355
00:23:05,484 --> 00:23:10,021
and playwright Briana Brown
and some other artists on a new play

356
00:23:10,055 --> 00:23:13,024
called Created for Kids by Kids,

357
00:23:13,024 --> 00:23:17,295
and that is a Harbourfront Centre commission.

358
00:23:17,329 --> 00:23:22,167
And we are creating a play about 
what kids think about the future 

359
00:23:22,167 --> 00:23:24,503
by interviewing kids and using their language.

360
00:23:24,536 --> 00:23:29,141
And my role is to ensure that
the programming is 

361
00:23:29,141 --> 00:23:34,546
inclusive of disabled children and that disabled children 
have their voice heard in this piece.

362
00:23:34,579 --> 00:23:37,015
And that's really exciting for me.

363
00:23:37,048 --> 00:23:41,653
Nice. Actually, to come back to language.

364
00:23:41,686 --> 00:23:47,859
Recently I had a conversation with
members of the disability community,

365
00:23:47,893 --> 00:23:53,398
but also members outside the disability
community who are sometimes frustrated,

366
00:23:53,432 --> 00:23:59,237
sometimes confused about the terms

367
00:23:59,237 --> 00:24:04,576
that they should use to describe or
to address someone with a disability.

368
00:24:04,609 --> 00:24:07,746
And we had this interesting conversation

369
00:24:07,779 --> 00:24:12,818
about the fact that for - in some textbooks

370
00:24:12,851 --> 00:24:16,855
or in some manuals that are talking

371
00:24:16,888 --> 00:24:21,092
about people first, they're saying,

372
00:24:21,126 --> 00:24:25,397
okay, people first is the way you
should address a person with disability.

373
00:24:25,397 --> 00:24:30,101
And I had someone saying, wait,
no, I am a proud disabled artist,

374
00:24:30,135 --> 00:24:32,771
and I have no problem saying that.

375
00:24:32,804 --> 00:24:36,041
And someone said, so how should I -

376
00:24:36,041 --> 00:24:37,742
How should I address you?

377
00:24:37,776 --> 00:24:40,479
Person with a - differently abled?

378
00:24:40,479 --> 00:24:42,747
No, no, no, no.

379
00:24:42,781 --> 00:24:44,783
You are someone with...

380
00:24:44,816 --> 00:24:46,017
You are differently abled.

381
00:24:46,051 --> 00:24:47,719
I am someone differently abled.

382
00:24:47,719 --> 00:24:49,888
Everybody is differently abled.

383
00:24:49,921 --> 00:24:53,058
This doesn't work, right?
Oh, yeah.

384
00:24:53,091 --> 00:24:55,493
So it's also about educating people.

385
00:24:55,527 --> 00:24:57,462
And also, as you say it, right?

386
00:24:57,496 --> 00:25:01,733
As you say, if you explain
and you say, well, think of it

387
00:25:01,766 --> 00:25:04,970
in this different perspective.

388
00:25:05,003 --> 00:25:07,973
We are, and everybody wants to -

389
00:25:08,006 --> 00:25:12,077
We need to respect the way people
want to mention themselves,

390
00:25:12,077 --> 00:25:14,512
not impose a way of doing it.

391
00:25:14,512 --> 00:25:17,182
And that's a very
interesting conversation.

392
00:25:17,215 --> 00:25:20,385
It's still ongoing
in the community right now.

393
00:25:20,418 --> 00:25:22,120
Yeah, it's fascinating, right?

394
00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:27,158
I think as we're moving forward in society, 
you know, one thing I'm really loving is 

395
00:25:27,158 --> 00:25:30,795
that we are announcing
our pronouns and we're talking that way.

396
00:25:30,795 --> 00:25:35,834
And to me, that is helping lead the way

397
00:25:35,834 --> 00:25:39,037
in the talk of language in the disability community, 

398
00:25:39,037 --> 00:25:43,108
these intersections
of previously marginalized communities

399
00:25:43,141 --> 00:25:45,343
or historically excluded communities.

400
00:25:45,377 --> 00:25:48,313
I think this is where these
really interesting and these

401
00:25:48,313 --> 00:25:50,982
vital conversations are happening.

402
00:25:51,016 --> 00:25:54,586
And for me, language is a huge one.
Special needs.

403
00:25:54,619 --> 00:25:56,821
That really came out
of the best of intentions.

404
00:25:56,855 --> 00:26:00,025
I think people's hearts were
in the right place when they came up

405
00:26:00,058 --> 00:26:02,661
with special needs because, so I'm 50.

406
00:26:02,694 --> 00:26:05,063
When I was younger, if I would
have said someone was disabled,

407
00:26:05,096 --> 00:26:08,867
I think every adult around me
would have been shock and horror because

408
00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:12,938
they had fought so hard for person first language.

409
00:26:12,938 --> 00:26:14,873
Let's see the person and then...

410
00:26:14,873 --> 00:26:19,010
Because back then,
labeling was very negative, right?

411
00:26:19,044 --> 00:26:22,814
It wasn't done with the positivity
or the pride or the confidence

412
00:26:22,847 --> 00:26:24,316
that it's done today.

413
00:26:24,316 --> 00:26:29,888
And so I think that as we're moving
forward and maybe letting people know

414
00:26:29,921 --> 00:26:34,059
that, hey, the social model is taking
disabled from this adjective that means

415
00:26:34,092 --> 00:26:37,362
broken or not good enough into more

416
00:26:37,395 --> 00:26:41,499
of a verb or adverb, where I personally

417
00:26:41,533 --> 00:26:45,236
am disabled by society's use of stairs.

418
00:26:45,236 --> 00:26:47,472
Could we get away from stairs, please?

419
00:26:47,505 --> 00:26:50,008
There's got to be a better way.

420
00:26:50,041 --> 00:26:56,715
And so I think that we do have to
honor where every, each individual is at.

421
00:26:56,715 --> 00:27:01,386
Every human has the right to identify and
to label themselves however they choose.

422
00:27:01,419 --> 00:27:02,854
I firmly believe that.

423
00:27:02,887 --> 00:27:05,790
But as an organization, when 
I'm working with companies, 

424
00:27:05,790 --> 00:27:08,593
I say, we as an organization, 
need to make a decision.

425
00:27:08,593 --> 00:27:09,894
What language are we using?

426
00:27:09,928 --> 00:27:13,298
Are we sticking with the government
of Canada's medical model

427
00:27:13,331 --> 00:27:17,702
or are we going to go with
a disability, community led model?

428
00:27:17,736 --> 00:27:18,470
Right?

429
00:27:18,503 --> 00:27:22,974
And so, but at the same time,
you know, not everyone's there.

430
00:27:23,008 --> 00:27:24,342
Not everyone's there.

431
00:27:24,376 --> 00:27:26,611
And they might refer to themselves
in different ways.

432
00:27:26,644 --> 00:27:30,448
That doesn't mean I have a right
to use that word when talking about them,

433
00:27:30,482 --> 00:27:35,220
but I cannot say to them, oh,
no, we're using this language now.

434
00:27:35,253 --> 00:27:36,888
They get to choose.

435
00:27:36,921 --> 00:27:38,590
Absolutely, yes.

436
00:27:38,623 --> 00:27:43,161
And so after so many years of working
in that, in this environment,

437
00:27:43,194 --> 00:27:45,764
what is it for you 

438
00:27:45,764 --> 00:27:48,233
to work in Accessibility Arts?

439
00:27:49,868 --> 00:27:51,636
Everything.

440
00:27:51,636 --> 00:27:53,304
I can't even...

441
00:27:53,338 --> 00:28:00,111
It's... honestly, I feel like
my whole life was moving towards this.

442
00:28:00,145 --> 00:28:04,015
I truly believe that until

443
00:28:04,049 --> 00:28:06,751
everyone has a seat at the table 

444
00:28:06,751 --> 00:28:12,791
and every story is reflected on stage and every
child has a chance to see their community

445
00:28:12,824 --> 00:28:18,496
and themselves or hear or experience,
their community's stories on stage,

446
00:28:18,496 --> 00:28:21,166
we will not be a complete society.

447
00:28:21,199 --> 00:28:26,037
And so for me, relaxed performance
is the first step.

448
00:28:26,037 --> 00:28:29,340
It's great. It's achievable 
by people, right?

449
00:28:29,340 --> 00:28:33,144
It's an achievable first step
into accessibility

450
00:28:33,178 --> 00:28:36,181
and it can be a good starter.

451
00:28:36,214 --> 00:28:41,252
And I think that as we sort of
move towards accessibility

452
00:28:41,286 --> 00:28:47,992
for audiences, the next logical step
is accessibility for disabled artists, 

453
00:28:47,992 --> 00:28:50,895
disabled administrators.

454
00:28:51,162 --> 00:28:52,897
It's like a domino effect.

455
00:28:52,931 --> 00:28:55,533
We're just going to keep
knocking down those barriers.

456
00:28:55,567 --> 00:29:00,572
And to me, that's
the most important thing.

457
00:29:00,605 --> 00:29:02,540
I agree.

458
00:29:03,241 --> 00:29:08,379
As a performer with a disability, I really
would like to access all these stages.

459
00:29:08,413 --> 00:29:09,881
Right?

460
00:29:09,914 --> 00:29:15,420
I've heard stories of filmmakers invited
to festivals where they're on the third -

461
00:29:15,453 --> 00:29:18,590
Their film is being screened
on the third floor of an old building.

462
00:29:18,623 --> 00:29:22,927
They're wheelchair users and there's no way 
for them to get up to their own screening.

463
00:29:22,927 --> 00:29:25,230
Like, what?

464
00:29:26,898 --> 00:29:31,736
I don't even, I don't even
understand how you can program that.

465
00:29:31,769 --> 00:29:37,342
And I don't understand how
we're just not thinking in terms

466
00:29:37,375 --> 00:29:40,712
of the human experience.
Right?

467
00:29:40,745 --> 00:29:44,082
And that encompasses every experience.

468
00:29:44,215 --> 00:29:46,184
Absolutely, yes.

469
00:29:46,217 --> 00:29:49,921
Okay, I have a last question for you.

470
00:29:51,523 --> 00:29:55,994
In the years you've worked in this
environment, if you had to think of

471
00:29:55,994 --> 00:30:02,667
one person or several people who 
motivated you, inspired you or

472
00:30:02,667 --> 00:30:07,505
provided some ideas to you 
and who influenced you,

473
00:30:07,539 --> 00:30:09,240
who would it be and why?

474
00:30:10,508 --> 00:30:16,581
There's so many. There's so many people that
I have had the opportunity to learn from

475
00:30:16,614 --> 00:30:19,450
and just share space with, but.

476
00:30:19,484 --> 00:30:23,488
So I'm just going to go
with a most recent experience.

477
00:30:23,521 --> 00:30:31,763
So, actually, at the SPARC Symposium
in May, we were able to have a couple

478
00:30:31,829 --> 00:30:36,167
accessibility presentations,
which I'm very proud of.

479
00:30:36,201 --> 00:30:40,371
But we had a presentation
on creative accessibility

480
00:30:40,405 --> 00:30:43,741
by Erin Ball and Maxime Beauregard.

481
00:30:43,775 --> 00:30:50,515
And Erin and Maxime are circus artists,
internationally known circus artists

482
00:30:50,515 --> 00:30:52,584
that reside right here in Ontario.

483
00:30:52,617 --> 00:30:54,319
How lucky are we?

484
00:30:54,319 --> 00:30:59,958
And they did this amazing presentation
on how to incorporate accessibility

485
00:30:59,958 --> 00:31:07,065
right into the performance
and the respect they had for the members

486
00:31:07,098 --> 00:31:09,267
of the group who were asking questions.

487
00:31:09,300 --> 00:31:15,139
The way they led their presentation
and their workshop and the way

488
00:31:15,173 --> 00:31:19,277
they modeled was so loving and so caring.

489
00:31:19,277 --> 00:31:23,815
And it wasn't one of these,
you have to do this or you're wrong.

490
00:31:23,848 --> 00:31:28,319
They very much know that things
have to be done and have to get done.

491
00:31:28,319 --> 00:31:30,888
And the way they laid it out,

492
00:31:30,922 --> 00:31:36,894
it inspired and it invigorated

493
00:31:36,928 --> 00:31:38,663
everybody in that room.

494
00:31:38,696 --> 00:31:43,101
And I was like, wow,
if everybody in the world

495
00:31:43,134 --> 00:31:47,538
could experience this presentation
and experience

496
00:31:47,572 --> 00:31:52,377
this love and feel the respect that's
being given back to them,

497
00:31:52,410 --> 00:31:55,913
I think we would have more people interested 

498
00:31:55,913 --> 00:31:58,783
in beginning their accessibility journey.

499
00:31:58,816 --> 00:32:01,653
And I think that that's what's needed.

500
00:32:01,686 --> 00:32:07,592
I understand that often we do need
to advocate and we do need to fight

501
00:32:07,625 --> 00:32:11,629
for our rights and for the rights
of the disabled community.

502
00:32:11,663 --> 00:32:18,336
But this was, this was an advocacy
in a very gentle way.

503
00:32:18,369 --> 00:32:24,208
It was like a relaxed performance workshop
and really just wove everyone in

504
00:32:24,242 --> 00:32:25,376
and brought them in.

505
00:32:25,410 --> 00:32:26,778
And plus their work.

506
00:32:26,811 --> 00:32:31,783
If you've never seen Erin and Maxim
perform, do yourself a favor.

507
00:32:31,816 --> 00:32:35,820
They were just at FOLDA on the weekend,
and I believe that's online

508
00:32:35,853 --> 00:32:37,455
and you can still access it.

509
00:32:37,488 --> 00:32:38,589
Please do.

510
00:32:38,623 --> 00:32:45,163
Their work is internationally
known and of a caliber that is beyond.

511
00:32:45,196 --> 00:32:47,298
And they're adding in accessibility.

512
00:32:47,332 --> 00:32:49,100
They're baking it right in.

513
00:32:49,133 --> 00:32:51,302
There was this piece that Erin did 

514
00:32:51,302 --> 00:32:57,008
where ze was on a hoop and there was

515
00:32:57,041 --> 00:33:03,581
a singer songwriter behind zir,
and the singer songwriter was singing

516
00:33:03,581 --> 00:33:07,685
the audio description of Erin's performance.

517
00:33:07,719 --> 00:33:10,221
So this is what they're meaning
by creative accessibility,

518
00:33:10,254 --> 00:33:12,023
just baking it right in.

519
00:33:12,056 --> 00:33:16,194
And if I might, I'm going to quote 
Kat Germain, one of the great 

520
00:33:16,194 --> 00:33:21,799
audio describers of Canada, who said one
time, you know, adding accessibility

521
00:33:21,799 --> 00:33:26,137
is like baking a cake and then
putting a pad of butter on top, right?

522
00:33:26,170 --> 00:33:28,473
Like we should be baking
that butter right in.

523
00:33:28,473 --> 00:33:32,343
But if we're just leaving it
on top, how's it getting into the cake?

524
00:33:32,377 --> 00:33:33,277
And I agree.

525
00:33:33,277 --> 00:33:38,416
And so this workshop by Erin
and Maxime was really wonderful.

526
00:33:38,449 --> 00:33:42,153
And it made it feel achievable and
it made it feel like we could all do this

527
00:33:42,153 --> 00:33:46,791
and it would just add these layers
to the artistic content 

528
00:33:46,791 --> 00:33:49,293
that we're experiencing 
and that we're creating.

529
00:33:49,327 --> 00:33:53,097
So Erin Ball, Maxime Beauregard, 
I love them.

530
00:33:53,131 --> 00:33:55,733
You will love them.
Please look them up.

531
00:33:55,767 --> 00:34:01,305
And I will also try to share this content
on ArtsAbly's website so that people

532
00:34:01,339 --> 00:34:03,674
can have a look at these things.

533
00:34:03,674 --> 00:34:05,910
Amazing.

534
00:34:05,943 --> 00:34:10,815
Thank you so much for this conversation
and thank you for the work you're doing

535
00:34:10,848 --> 00:34:13,084
because it's really important.

536
00:34:13,117 --> 00:34:13,818
Thank you.

537
00:34:13,851 --> 00:34:19,457
It's a privilege and an honor
to be able to do this work

538
00:34:19,490 --> 00:34:21,759
and to work with other folks.

539
00:34:21,759 --> 00:34:26,264
Like we mentioned Xenia and
we've mentioned Kat and Erin and Maxime,

540
00:34:26,297 --> 00:34:27,965
and there's Kayla at Stratford.

541
00:34:27,999 --> 00:34:31,736
I mean, all of these folks that
are moving everything forward, 

542
00:34:31,736 --> 00:34:33,971
it's such an honor to work with them. 

543
00:34:33,971 --> 00:34:36,874
And you. Thank you.
[Laughs.]

544
00:34:37,241 --> 00:34:38,910
Okay.
Have a great day.

545
00:34:38,943 --> 00:34:39,944
Thank you so much.

546
00:34:39,944 --> 00:34:41,179
Thank you. Bye.

547
00:34:42,246 --> 00:34:47,385
[Closing theme music]