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[Opening theme music]

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Hello, and welcome to this episode
of ArtAbly in Conversation.

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My name is Diane Kolin.

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This series presents artists, academics,
and project leaders who dedicate their

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time and energy to a better accessibility
for people with disabilities in the arts.

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You can find more of these conversations
on our website, artsably.com,

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which is spelled A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com.

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[Theme music]

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Today, ArtsAbly is in conversation
with Charlie Mosbrook, 

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a singer, songwriter, and a music educator
living in Cleveland, in Ohio.

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You can find the resources mentioned by
Charlie Mosbrook during this episode

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on ArtsAbly's website in the blog section.

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[Charlie Mosbrook plays 
Remember who you are]

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Remember who we are as we

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come from near and far.

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Women marching in the streets
of bent-need athletes.

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We are refugees and dreamers.

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The immigrants you blame,
we will come from near and far.

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Remember who we are.

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Remember who we are.

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We carry open scars.

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Forward in our wheelchairs,
you cannot disregard.

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As we block the halls of Congress.

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for the fear of a graveyard.

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We will come from near and far.

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Remember who we are.

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And stood up to the Klansmen

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and the Nazis, just the same.

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And to a tone-deaf president
for whom the victim shares the blame

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for a deadly act of terror,

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to him it's just a game,
and we will come from near and far. 

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Remember who we are.

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We are scientists and teachers

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and reporters on TV.

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Investigators, lawyers,
the facts are plain to see.

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And the evidence is obvious,
don't look the other way.

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We will come from near and far, 

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oh remember who we are.

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And we know that all lives matters,

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but it doesn't seem that way 

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When the consequence of living 
is dying every day.

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If the motto of your force
is self-service and neglect

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we will come from near and far 

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oh remember who we are.

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Schools are filled with children,
to live with different rules.

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Drills and lockdowns put in place
can't save them from these fools.

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As you pander to the worst in us,
friends are laid to waste

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We will come from near and far, 
oh, remember who we are.

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We will come from near and far,

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remember who we are.

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[End of the music video]

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Welcome to this new episode
of ArtsAbly in Conversation.

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Today, I am with Charlie Mosbrook,
who is a singer, songwriter, 

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and a music educator living in 
Cleveland, Ohio. Welcome, Charlie.

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Hey, Diane.
Good to be here.

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Thank you for being here.

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Sure.

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Okay, so let's talk about your rich career

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because you have a long career in music.

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I wanted to start by asking you if you could give 
a bit of background, tell me who you are...

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Well, I am Charlie Mossbrook.

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I am in Cleveland, Ohio,

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and I'm a singer-songwriter.

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I've been at this for over 30 years now.

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As a musician living with a disability,

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I've been at this about 14 years,

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which is a different world
for me, but I've made the most of it.

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In some ways, it's has been
a better fit for me than previously.

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When did you start your musical journey?

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I'm guessing I was probably
a toddler and I was taking spoons

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and pounding on my high chair.

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Then in about the fourth or fifth grade, 
maybe, I started playing drums

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in the school and took drum instruction
for about four years as well

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as being in the choir.

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Then I started listening to some...

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Well, I'd always listened to songwriters
and such, but I was a poet, and

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I discovered that I could write songs,
and the guitar was a good tool for that.

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I think I switched to bass briefly
from the drums and then thought

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the guitar was more suitable
for me because it became a drum.

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The acoustic guitar is drum-like in the
approach, and for songwriting, 

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it just made a whole heck 
of a lot more sense.

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I got into it that way, and I think I just

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had a foolish belief in myself and just

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started going forward and writing songs
and trying to play them for people.

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I think I thought I was great.

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I don't know how good I was,
but I was passionate and persistent.

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That carried me a long way to really
being a little more accomplished.

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I did a lot of street music for a while,
and that helped me to develop my skills.

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Did you do music studies or were you
studying something completely different

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than just doing- In school,
I took the drum lessons.

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More recently, I've been studying
Piedmont Blues styles 

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with with a guy who's very 
good at that in this area.

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I've excelled quite a bit, actually,
much more recently than I think I

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have over any other period of my life.

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But more or less, I just find the 
right people to spend time with

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and watch their fingers and 
ask questions from time to time.

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I did study audio engineering, so I have
that background and did a good internship

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with a good record label here
in northeast Ohio.

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That was most of my music study was
actually in recording, more so the music.

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But I've always been a self-motivator.

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When it was time to learn how to play the
instrument, I figured it out on my own.

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When it was time to do whatever
I needed to do, I just studied whatever

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I could and then went with it.

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Every once in a while, I got lucky and found 
a good mentor who could help me out a little bit.

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 Studying sound engineering,
it might have helped you when you were

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working on your own productions, right?

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Yeah, it helped me to better organize
what I was doing and to just think about

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how things worked a little better.

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At the time I was studying,
though, it was early 2000s.

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All of our instructors were well-versed
in more of the analog world,

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and everything now is software-based.

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My desk is very clean as
opposed to what I had in mind when I

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started building my recording setup.

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Now it's really, how much
can I keep in the box?

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While I am attracted to new shiny things
like most people in music are,

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for most people, I think, that's just the
consumer, at least in the US,

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I don't know about on the other side
of the lakes, but

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we are driven to be consumers,
and we are horse-fed every

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shiny new object that comes our way.

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There are a couple of little shiny objects
sitting in front of me

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other than the software.

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I think it's the same over there.

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I know that you were performing.

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In the '90s and 2000s, you
were performing a lot 

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in a lot of different places, actually, right?

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Yeah.

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Well, I I spent a lot of years.

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When I was younger, I would go
play open mics as most songwriters would.

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I came back to Cleveland
and started working

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in a coffee shop I had 
previously worked in.

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The owner said, What can we do to make
Monday night more profitable?

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I said, Let's do an open mic.
He said, Do it.

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I had no idea what I was doing,
but I grabbed a couple of friends

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and said, Let's figure this out.

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That was very successful for
about 14 years before the coffee shop.

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We lived in the coffee shop, actually,
and moved to another coffee shop.

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Another 10 years added to that.

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But during that time, I ran.

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There were years where I was running
probably four open mics a week and then

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running around on weekends
doing three or four different shows.

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So very, very busy.

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I don't maintain that schedule anymore
as far as shows go.

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Though when I do a show today,
I get paid a lot better than I

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used to at that time in my life.

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Were you performing mostly
your compositions or were you

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performing artists you liked?

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These days, I prefer a house concert

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or some venue, more like

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a concert presentation or a festival.

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I don't really like playing bars or coffee
shops very much anymore because oftentimes,

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they put me in an awkward 
position where I find

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people who have had maybe too much drink

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are tripping over me, and I
don't want to have to spend the time

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defending myself or
my instrument or my chair.

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So I just find that

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If I'm not going to have fun
doing the gig because I'm spending time

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trying to protect myself, my instruments
or my chair, I tend not to go back.

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It just seems too much work,
and I want to focus on the music.

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I look for concert presentation
opportunities.

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It's really artist-wise,
it's your own music, right?

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Or are you also doing- Well,
I really started off with the idea

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that I was a songwriter
and I would be doing my own music.

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I also got really interested in
Woody Guthrie's music and wanted to

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carry that a little bit.

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I played at the Rock and Roll Hall
of Fame during a big...

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They did a big program on Woody Guthrie,
and they had a couple of us come in

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and sing a bunch of his songs.

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But today, because of my teaching, and

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I work so much with the traditional songs

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just on my own or through teaching
that I usually include some of that.

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I think it's important.

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I think the traditional music for folk
music, if you're doing original folk music, 

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for myself, it's informed heavily
by traditional music.

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To help people better
understand where the music

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I'm playing today comes from, I like to...

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There's some inclusion to the past.

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I think it's important for people to know
who Elizabeth Cotten or Woody Guthrie or

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Mississippi John Hurt are and where those
songs come from and how that tradition

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It's all part of the same story.

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I do tend to do some of
other people's music, but yeah,

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primarily I'm a songwriter.

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Is that what I answered your question?

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Yes, it did.

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Once - you had an accident, right?

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Not really.
They caught...

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Well, it was degenerative disk disorder

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is what they put on all the forms.

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The disks between five and six
of the cervical part of my spine

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started to break down and they
started bouncing against the spine.

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They went in and they cleaned it up.

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Nobody could really tell
me how they broke down.

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I have some suspicions based on
my lifestyle and some goofy things

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that I may have done,
but I couldn't nail it down.

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I remember being in the physical therapy
in it my first night.

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I was going to be in there for a while
trying to figure out some basics.

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How do you put your pants on 

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and how do you get in and out
of a car and blah, blah, blah.

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I remember the question
going round and round and round.

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All of a sudden, I put the brakes on.
I said, Stop.

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You're going to think about this your whole life 
and it's going to make you crazy.

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It doesn't really matter
how or what happened.

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The goal here is to move forward.

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That's basically become my mantra.

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Move forward, just keep moving forward.

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Except when I have to back
out of places, that's pretty good.

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Moving forward in music, what did it mean?

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You had your career
and your journey, and now

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you were in this new situation sitting.

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Yeah.
I had to rethink everything.

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Just the way I perform, I would stand.

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There's a guitar that's on a strap
around my shoulder, and I can move it

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so I can get up the neck with this hand.
I can do...

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All of a sudden, it's sitting on my lap.

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Just that had to change a little bit.

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The way I do a lot more
finger picking these days

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than strumming across across the neck
because it's just more comfortable.

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I had to rethink how I play.

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Plus, these two fingers
on both hands, I get a lot of tingling,

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and they don't always land properly.

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These two, these are the workers.

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These get involved, but not as well.

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I needed to really rethink and retrain
some of the muscle memory to make sure

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that, well, this needs to get to that
string, and if it's there, do I feel it?

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Bad days, I don't feel it.

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On good days, it does what it needs to do.

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Bad days, there's definitely
a little clunky action, and I try to

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ignore it and just move on through
or adapt to that situation.

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Performing, because I stood,
that obviously changed.

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But I had gear back in the '90s
and through the early 2000s,

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I was rolling around with 50,
75-pound speakers and amplifiers that were

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200 pounds, it felt like, and so much gear. 
So probably the very first

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thing I did was to go on to
one of these sales sites.

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I don't know if it's
Craigslist or eBay or what.

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But I sold off all my gear
and replaced it with things

235
00:17:36,722 --> 00:17:39,658
that I can physically pick up.

236
00:17:40,259 --> 00:17:44,730
So when I go out and do a small,

237
00:17:44,730 --> 00:17:49,401
like a farmer's market or a house concert,

238
00:17:49,435 --> 00:17:53,972
I have a little seven-pound all in one
package that really sounds great.

239
00:17:53,972 --> 00:17:54,973
It's wonderful.

240
00:17:54,973 --> 00:17:58,377
When I travel across the country, I've got
a little luggage thing on the front

241
00:17:58,410 --> 00:18:01,313
of the chair where I can put the guitar.

242
00:18:01,346 --> 00:18:03,115
I put my backpack back here.

243
00:18:03,148 --> 00:18:05,084
I put a smaller pack
hanging from the chair.

244
00:18:05,117 --> 00:18:11,356
Then I have my little speaker sitting on
my lap in between my torso and my guitar.

245
00:18:11,390 --> 00:18:14,059
And the country is mine.
I can go wherever I want.

246
00:18:14,059 --> 00:18:16,328
Or I come into your country.

247
00:18:16,361 --> 00:18:18,931
I'll be in Montreal next
February, I believe.

248
00:18:18,931 --> 00:18:20,933
Ah!

249
00:18:21,133 --> 00:18:24,236
As long as I can get across
the border, I'll go there.

250
00:18:24,269 --> 00:18:30,909
I travel mostly by Amtrak if I can
because it helps me to carry what I need.

251
00:18:30,909 --> 00:18:35,414
I can have it all with me in the seat.

252
00:18:35,414 --> 00:18:37,616
I can get to and from the restroom.

253
00:18:37,616 --> 00:18:41,186
When you travel Amtrak,
it's a good idea to have a plan

254
00:18:41,220 --> 00:18:44,289
to have somebody pick you up.

255
00:18:44,323 --> 00:18:49,461
Everything's always taken care of,
and I don't have to be as self-sufficient

256
00:18:49,495 --> 00:18:53,532
as I once was when I would

257
00:18:53,532 --> 00:19:00,072
drive around the country and do that.
I've never started driving again either.

258
00:19:01,673 --> 00:19:04,877
I'm frankly afraid of it.

259
00:19:06,278 --> 00:19:12,251
It takes some time to adapt,
to every situation.

260
00:19:12,251 --> 00:19:15,954
And this way works for me.

261
00:19:17,656 --> 00:19:20,492
But yeah, we adapt.

262
00:19:20,526 --> 00:19:23,595
Everything really did change.

263
00:19:23,595 --> 00:19:27,399
I I think also just as a musician

264
00:19:27,432 --> 00:19:29,735
or as a folk musician and doing

265
00:19:29,735 --> 00:19:33,138
topical songs and singing in favor 

266
00:19:33,138 --> 00:19:39,878
of people's rights and humanity, and that being

267
00:19:39,912 --> 00:19:45,217
a middle class, white male,
straight white male,

268
00:19:46,184 --> 00:19:51,089
my voice was only
in observation for the most part.

269
00:19:51,123 --> 00:19:53,759
I didn't ever experience...

270
00:19:53,792 --> 00:19:59,798
You know, I experienced some 
moments of this isn't fair, but 

271
00:19:59,798 --> 00:20:02,734
I live in privilege, and I know that I did.

272
00:20:03,435 --> 00:20:07,706
Being in a marginalized group as
a disabled person,

273
00:20:07,739 --> 00:20:11,877
all of a sudden, my voice,
my perspective changed quite a bit because

274
00:20:11,877 --> 00:20:16,348
now all of a sudden I understood
what it was like to live in a world

275
00:20:16,381 --> 00:20:20,219
that was not built for me, 

276
00:20:20,219 --> 00:20:24,656
that quietly excuses me or

277
00:20:24,656 --> 00:20:28,093
even undermines my ability to succeed.

278
00:20:28,126 --> 00:20:32,898
I'd never experienced that before,
and now I understand that better.

279
00:20:32,898 --> 00:20:37,402
I don't let it happen,
but I understand it better.

280
00:20:37,436 --> 00:20:41,673
I am - again, where I began
was persistence, 

281
00:20:41,673 --> 00:20:46,945
and persistence has always been a big part
of that whole moving forward plan.

282
00:20:47,746 --> 00:20:54,119
With your work, you also work with a lot of voices.

283
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,422
You want to, I think,

284
00:20:57,456 --> 00:21:01,226
be involved in these communities

285
00:21:01,259 --> 00:21:06,898
where there is a right to be

286
00:21:06,932 --> 00:21:10,736
and a right to be present and a right
to... This is Advocacy Community.

287
00:21:10,769 --> 00:21:14,640
Can you talk about
this advocacy work you're doing?

288
00:21:14,740 --> 00:21:18,443
I work with a group called
Roots of American Music.

289
00:21:18,443 --> 00:21:22,748
It's an educational organization
based here in Cleveland.

290
00:21:22,781 --> 00:21:25,284
We have I have a number of programs.

291
00:21:25,317 --> 00:21:31,590
One of them is called Stop
the Hate, which is based around...

292
00:21:33,191 --> 00:21:36,595
Why am I blanking the word?

293
00:21:37,996 --> 00:21:43,335
Basically, we go into the schools and we
do a songwriting workshop with students

294
00:21:43,368 --> 00:21:49,875
to write songs that hopefully answer
the questions of

295
00:21:52,177 --> 00:21:57,849
giving people an opportunity to simply
live, giving people an opportunity to

296
00:21:57,883 --> 00:22:04,456
excel, pushing back against
the voices of hate.

297
00:22:05,657 --> 00:22:11,096
We'll write songs, it's as a class.
One of the most...

298
00:22:11,096 --> 00:22:14,466
To me, we've run a number

299
00:22:14,499 --> 00:22:18,003
of awards with these songs, 

300
00:22:18,003 --> 00:22:22,207
but one of the most important ones that I was
involved with, I went into a school

301
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:23,742
in the Glenville neighborhood.

302
00:22:23,742 --> 00:22:29,081
Glenville is a neighborhood
in Cleveland where Superman was born.

303
00:22:29,114 --> 00:22:31,583
The two young men who drew Superman.

304
00:22:31,583 --> 00:22:37,889
Their high school has produced
quite a few very good NFL stars,

305
00:22:37,923 --> 00:22:41,693
but it's a very poor neighborhood.

306
00:22:43,895 --> 00:22:49,367
It's a neighborhood that has a lot
of challenges in many ways.

307
00:22:49,401 --> 00:22:53,872
One of the big challenges is nutrition,
and they don't have grocery stores.

308
00:22:53,905 --> 00:23:01,446
One of these food deserts where the kids
don't have access to good food.

309
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,051
I went into the school and I said,
What issues are really concerning you?

310
00:23:06,084 --> 00:23:07,319
What impacts you?

311
00:23:07,352 --> 00:23:11,523
Where do you see change
in this community, in your world?

312
00:23:11,523 --> 00:23:15,460
They said, Food.
We can't...

313
00:23:15,460 --> 00:23:17,863
So we wrote a song called Skittles.

314
00:23:17,863 --> 00:23:23,935
They said, We need better vittles,
and all we have here is Skittles.

315
00:23:23,935 --> 00:23:25,570
Because that was their perception.

316
00:23:25,604 --> 00:23:27,272
They go, Where do you get food?

317
00:23:27,305 --> 00:23:29,508
At the gas station.

318
00:23:29,541 --> 00:23:35,914
We wrote this song, and the judges
in the contest, in the songwriting

319
00:23:35,947 --> 00:23:40,819
contest, are oftentimes people
with a lot of resources.

320
00:23:40,819 --> 00:23:46,558
My hope was that that song would reach
the right ears and people would say,

321
00:23:46,558 --> 00:23:51,663
Yeah, these kids really do need food,
and we need to do better as far

322
00:23:51,696 --> 00:23:56,034
as bringing nutritious food
into different communities.

323
00:23:56,301 --> 00:24:01,006
Good groceries shouldn't just be available
to very affluent neighborhoods,

324
00:24:01,039 --> 00:24:03,875
which that's the way the grocers work.

325
00:24:03,909 --> 00:24:08,713
I mean, any one of the big ones, they
come in and they survey the area and they say,

326
00:24:08,713 --> 00:24:11,249
Is this profitable or is it not?

327
00:24:11,283 --> 00:24:17,222
That's not how we should look at
the distribution of food or medicine

328
00:24:17,222 --> 00:24:21,092
or housing or anything like that.
But that's where we're at right now.

329
00:24:22,294 --> 00:24:27,132
We use these opportunities
to give the kids an opportunity to really

330
00:24:27,699 --> 00:24:31,470
think about changing the world and think
about what parts of their world need

331
00:24:31,503 --> 00:24:33,805
to be changed and what could be better.

332
00:24:33,839 --> 00:24:37,476
In so doing, I learn a lot from them.

333
00:24:37,509 --> 00:24:42,214
Then we also teach a program
called Blues is the Backbone.

334
00:24:42,247 --> 00:24:48,487
I look at that teaching American history
through the lens of the blues.

335
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,989
We start in about 1850

336
00:24:51,022 --> 00:24:57,095
as slavery is at its peak,

337
00:24:57,128 --> 00:24:59,698
but there's a big fight going on.
They need it.

338
00:24:59,698 --> 00:25:04,502
The underground railroad is a big part
of the beginning of that story.

339
00:25:04,536 --> 00:25:08,139
Banjo is being played on a gourd.

340
00:25:08,139 --> 00:25:13,812
You can find videos of Rhiannon Giddens
playing a Banjo like that.

341
00:25:13,845 --> 00:25:16,915
This year, we finished the class
after eight weeks with Bruno Mars,

342
00:25:16,948 --> 00:25:23,221
and I was able to trace the lineage
of American music from Bruno Mars back

343
00:25:23,221 --> 00:25:30,562
to an old Banjo made with a gourd, or as
I would say to the kids, like a pumpkin.

344
00:25:30,595 --> 00:25:32,998
That made sense to them.

345
00:25:33,031 --> 00:25:34,432
That's fantastic.

346
00:25:34,466 --> 00:25:40,105
It's really important to make them
understand that the music we play today

347
00:25:40,138 --> 00:25:44,676
have roots and that if you're able
to play what you're playing today,

348
00:25:44,709 --> 00:25:48,146
that's because of all these musicians
that were before us.

349
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:55,787
And I think it's important for the children
to understand or adults to understand

350
00:25:55,820 --> 00:25:59,691
that they come from something,
that they come from a huge history,

351
00:25:59,724 --> 00:26:05,964
that their roots of the history
of the universe winds up in them.

352
00:26:05,997 --> 00:26:10,769
And then what they do today
will impact what's ahead of them.

353
00:26:10,802 --> 00:26:14,973
To me, that's a very,
very important lesson.

354
00:26:15,307 --> 00:26:18,910
In music, we can illustrate that.

355
00:26:19,144 --> 00:26:22,981
You're also a member
of Folk Alliance International, right?

356
00:26:22,981 --> 00:26:27,552
Yeah, I'm currently on the board of
trustees for Folk Alliance International.

357
00:26:27,586 --> 00:26:32,691
I was formerly the President of Folk
Alliance Region Midwest, which serves

358
00:26:32,724 --> 00:26:35,794
the Midwest United States and Canada.

359
00:26:37,829 --> 00:26:42,400
I'm a first-year board member
with Folk Alliance right now.

360
00:26:42,601 --> 00:26:43,435
That's fine.

361
00:26:43,468 --> 00:26:47,639
It's a great group of people
that I'm serving with.

362
00:26:49,708 --> 00:26:54,613
We're serving a lot of needs, I think,
within the music industry and for helping

363
00:26:54,646 --> 00:26:58,984
helping people in the folk music world
to be able to establish them

364
00:26:59,017 --> 00:27:04,889
and have the tools available to them that
traditionally go to the money makers.

365
00:27:04,923 --> 00:27:07,292
Anybody in folk music knows
if you want to make a million dollars

366
00:27:07,325 --> 00:27:10,362
in folk music, start with two.

367
00:27:11,296 --> 00:27:16,701
So trying to find...

368
00:27:18,103 --> 00:27:23,875
find ways to help our community grow

369
00:27:23,908 --> 00:27:27,245
and to become stronger and to have those
resources and tools and

370
00:27:27,278 --> 00:27:31,116
to know that they're not alone,
that the musicians who are playing,

371
00:27:31,149 --> 00:27:34,252
and it's not just folk music,
but anything that's not...

372
00:27:34,252 --> 00:27:39,090
I think as a young musician, to me,
success in music was 

373
00:27:39,090 --> 00:27:43,028
doing what Mick Jagger or 
Michael Jackson were doing.

374
00:27:43,061 --> 00:27:49,134
In truth, and I said this to somebody
this morning, waking up and being able

375
00:27:49,134 --> 00:27:52,404
to put a guitar in my hand
and making music, that's success.

376
00:27:52,437 --> 00:27:53,505
I get to do that every day.

377
00:27:53,538 --> 00:27:57,575
That's fun. I get to perform for kids,
I get to perform for older people.

378
00:27:57,609 --> 00:28:00,078
I get to perform for people my age.

379
00:28:00,111 --> 00:28:03,782
I get to record, and I get to help other

380
00:28:03,815 --> 00:28:08,053
people to make their musical livelihood,

381
00:28:08,053 --> 00:28:12,090
something practical and sustainable.

382
00:28:12,090 --> 00:28:18,329
And to me, that's success in music,
almost more so than...

383
00:28:18,363 --> 00:28:23,034
I'm not saying I would walk away
from Mick Jagger's opportunities,

384
00:28:23,068 --> 00:28:27,338
but I like where I'm at today.
It's pretty good.

385
00:28:27,338 --> 00:28:32,277
I wouldn't have imagined it
as a teenager, but looking at it now,

386
00:28:32,277 --> 00:28:35,246
I'm like, This is cool.
We're doing good stuff.

387
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:42,253
Is there a specific project
that you might want to highlight?

388
00:28:42,654 --> 00:28:51,496
Currently, I've got a handful
of songs that I'm working on right now.

389
00:28:51,496 --> 00:28:56,101
I just finished up a few streaming records.

390
00:28:56,134 --> 00:29:00,238
One was a collection of 
Grateful Dead songs 

391
00:29:00,238 --> 00:29:06,144
performed as pure folk songs, 
single instruments. Each instrument - 

392
00:29:06,644 --> 00:29:10,682
It's called Song Hunter,
and it's a tribute to Robert Hunter.

393
00:29:10,715 --> 00:29:15,987
Each song, I'd highlight a specific
instrument, such as Fire on the Mountain.

394
00:29:16,020 --> 00:29:20,191
I used a Mountain Dulcimer
because it seemed to fit the song.

395
00:29:20,225 --> 00:29:24,362
Or Shiva Fool, I used an ukulele,
and it really seemed to fit the song.

396
00:29:25,263 --> 00:29:27,298
I really just
wanted to highlight the songwriting

397
00:29:27,298 --> 00:29:32,470
because people had said to me for years,
What's so great about the Grateful Dead?

398
00:29:32,504 --> 00:29:34,239
They sound all the same.

399
00:29:34,239 --> 00:29:36,007
I'm like, Oh, listen to those songs.

400
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,044
It's not just a mind-numming
jamming going on.

401
00:29:40,078 --> 00:29:41,646
It's wonderful songwriting.

402
00:29:41,679 --> 00:29:45,683
I also recently put out a streaming record

403
00:29:45,717 --> 00:29:48,953
called They Deserve Better, which was

404
00:29:48,987 --> 00:29:54,159
a collection of old songs of mine that
I'd recorded previously that may have

405
00:29:54,159 --> 00:29:57,061
been recorded on a cassette four track
or something like that.

406
00:29:57,095 --> 00:30:01,733
They weren't really
presentable any longer.

407
00:30:01,766 --> 00:30:07,572
I went and reworked them
and just had a lot of fun

408
00:30:07,605 --> 00:30:09,440
recording them and putting them.

409
00:30:09,474 --> 00:30:12,277
I think those two are the
most recent ones that I've worked on

410
00:30:12,277 --> 00:30:14,746
that I feel really strongly about.

411
00:30:14,779 --> 00:30:18,082
The next one
will be all new original music,

412
00:30:18,082 --> 00:30:20,752
and that's what I'm working on now.

413
00:30:20,785 --> 00:30:27,192
The new stuff is always the
most difficult place for me is

414
00:30:27,192 --> 00:30:30,562
figuring out what do I want to say.

415
00:30:30,595 --> 00:30:32,063
What do I want to say?

416
00:30:32,931 --> 00:30:36,868
Once I have that in mind, all of a sudden, 
the floodgates open up and 

417
00:30:36,868 --> 00:30:40,238
the lyrics start coming.
I think they're coming right now.

418
00:30:40,238 --> 00:30:42,473
I think I know what I want to say.

419
00:30:42,507 --> 00:30:45,977
It's just capturing that.

420
00:30:46,945 --> 00:30:52,817
In what you want to say, maybe
there is something that you could explore

421
00:30:52,817 --> 00:30:56,554
at a certain your life, which is about

422
00:30:56,588 --> 00:30:59,924
working in what I call disability arts

423
00:30:59,958 --> 00:31:05,930
for quite a long time now
and learning and adapting.

424
00:31:05,964 --> 00:31:12,136
What it is for you to work in that
environment where you have access needs,

425
00:31:12,170 --> 00:31:15,840
you need to have an accessible stage, and
you need to have people who understand

426
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,043
that artists with disabilities exist?

427
00:31:19,077 --> 00:31:22,480
What is it for you to work
in that environment?

428
00:31:22,513 --> 00:31:28,052
Well, I've always said to presenters,
they'll look at me and say,

429
00:31:28,052 --> 00:31:30,521
Well, we're not sure if we
can actually accommodate you.

430
00:31:30,555 --> 00:31:31,556
I said, You know what?

431
00:31:31,556 --> 00:31:35,760
If you tell me it's a stage,
I will get on the roof if it's necessary.

432
00:31:35,793 --> 00:31:39,864
You let me answer that question.
Never answer that question.

433
00:31:39,864 --> 00:31:46,537
The one thing that I've always encouraged
music presenters whenever I'm sitting

434
00:31:46,571 --> 00:31:51,476
on a panel or anything like that
is ask the artist what they need.

435
00:31:51,476 --> 00:31:57,315
Don't assume that I can't because
you look at me and you say, Oh, he can't.

436
00:31:57,415 --> 00:32:04,322
I would say, revise that thinking and
realize that I'm a lot more persistent

437
00:32:04,322 --> 00:32:08,760
and I have a lot of challenges from day
to day that I have to figure out.

438
00:32:08,793 --> 00:32:12,363
I'll figure this one out, too, 
it is always my thought.

439
00:32:12,397 --> 00:32:18,069
I always hope that the music presenters
give me an opportunity to tell them

440
00:32:18,069 --> 00:32:21,572
what I need and what I can 
and can't do rather than 

441
00:32:21,572 --> 00:32:25,710
for them to quietly just write me
off, assuming that I can't do it.

442
00:32:28,413 --> 00:32:31,149
I've dealt with all kinds of weird...

443
00:32:31,182 --> 00:32:36,854
I mean, like any performer who lives with
disabilities, we deal with all kinds of

444
00:32:36,888 --> 00:32:42,260
strange stages and a ramp 
that was meant for kegs 

445
00:32:42,260 --> 00:32:45,229
or not to bring a human being up

446
00:32:45,229 --> 00:32:50,601
that I feel like I'm going to tip over
backwards if I try to go at that angle.

447
00:32:52,270 --> 00:32:56,074
There's always challenges,
but for me, there's always a way.

448
00:32:56,107 --> 00:32:57,942
There's always a way,
and it might look awkward.

449
00:32:57,976 --> 00:33:04,749
I try not to be on stage

450
00:33:04,749 --> 00:33:06,517
and make that the focal point.

451
00:33:06,517 --> 00:33:08,853
I want the music to be the focal point.

452
00:33:08,886 --> 00:33:12,824
I want to forget about those struggles
as much as I want the audience

453
00:33:12,857 --> 00:33:14,892
to forget that it's happening.

454
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,663
But I also want them to be aware
of the struggles, too.

455
00:33:18,663 --> 00:33:24,836
To me, there's a big part of performance

456
00:33:24,869 --> 00:33:28,239
as an artist with a disability

457
00:33:29,273 --> 00:33:31,509
where we're educating people.

458
00:33:31,542 --> 00:33:35,146
We are letting people
know that we are more than capable.

459
00:33:35,179 --> 00:33:40,051
And we're letting people know that
Yeah, there are some things

460
00:33:40,084 --> 00:33:44,555
that aren't that easy for us,
but we are more than capable.

461
00:33:44,589 --> 00:33:51,028
So ultimately, when I'm on a stage, I want
the audience to know that they're looking

462
00:33:51,062 --> 00:33:55,566
at people who shouldn't be written
off, shouldn't be marginalized

463
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,604
in any way, that we will figure it out.

464
00:33:59,637 --> 00:34:03,541
Then working within an organization
like Folk Alliance International

465
00:34:03,541 --> 00:34:09,447
or Folk Alliance Midwest or locally
Folknet, we are always looking for ways

466
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:14,218
to even the playing field.

467
00:34:16,521 --> 00:34:19,857
I'm fortunate I get to go on
site search committees to find where

468
00:34:19,891 --> 00:34:21,759
we're going to do our next conference.

469
00:34:21,793 --> 00:34:28,399
With that work, I had the to look
at showers and say, why does your hotel

470
00:34:28,399 --> 00:34:34,972
put the wand 6 feet in the air on
the other side of the tub from the bench,

471
00:34:35,006 --> 00:34:36,908
and then the soap is another 6 feet?

472
00:34:36,941 --> 00:34:39,811
It's like, why are you making it harder?

473
00:34:39,844 --> 00:34:42,480
This is supposed to be an accessible room.

474
00:34:42,513 --> 00:34:49,954
I have the ability to go into hotels with
huge financial resources backing me

475
00:34:49,987 --> 00:34:55,760
and their desire to have those resources
come into to their hotels

476
00:34:55,793 --> 00:34:59,530
and say, I don't think you're really
serving everybody, and I think that

477
00:34:59,564 --> 00:35:07,972
we'd be more apt to come to you
if you served all of our people.

478
00:35:09,140 --> 00:35:13,678
I find a lot of benefit in being able to
work with nonprofits that are presenting

479
00:35:13,678 --> 00:35:19,217
these conferences because I think
in that capacity, I have the ability

480
00:35:19,250 --> 00:35:22,353
to educate people about our needs.

481
00:35:22,386 --> 00:35:25,857
Then just being able to serve on panels

482
00:35:25,890 --> 00:35:30,561
and things like that, festival organizers

483
00:35:30,561 --> 00:35:33,865
in different venues, they come
to our panels, they say, 

484
00:35:33,865 --> 00:35:36,534
What do I need to do to 
become more accessible?

485
00:35:36,534 --> 00:35:41,539
I said, Well, when you... 
On your website, have a line

486
00:35:41,539 --> 00:35:44,842
where I can spell out my needs for you.

487
00:35:44,876 --> 00:35:50,548
We would love to be able to serve
every single disabled person

488
00:35:51,349 --> 00:35:54,619
in the world, or person with a disability, I'm sorry.

489
00:35:54,619 --> 00:35:59,123
I always try to maintain that
people come first.

490
00:35:59,157 --> 00:36:01,792
A person with a disability.

491
00:36:02,693 --> 00:36:07,732
But from my perspective, the most
important thing we can do is to

492
00:36:07,732 --> 00:36:10,768
encourage people to ask, 
what are the needs?

493
00:36:10,801 --> 00:36:16,641
What will make this
a more enjoyable event for people?

494
00:36:16,674 --> 00:36:21,779
I find that working in that capacity,
I have the ability to make some change

495
00:36:21,779 --> 00:36:25,683
because I can be a part of that conversation
and help to foster that 

496
00:36:25,683 --> 00:36:28,252
and make sure that the 
conversation actually happens.

497
00:36:28,819 --> 00:36:33,925
I think before I got involved
with Folk Alliance Midwest,

498
00:36:33,958 --> 00:36:35,893
that conversation didn't happen.

499
00:36:35,927 --> 00:36:42,133
Once I was involved, I was a workshop
coordinator, so it became a workshop.

500
00:36:43,501 --> 00:36:47,104
Positioning ourselves,
I think, is really important.

501
00:36:47,138 --> 00:36:50,274
If you want to change the world,
you got to get in line and

502
00:36:50,308 --> 00:36:53,945
figure out how do I position myself
to be a part of that change.

503
00:36:54,145 --> 00:36:59,750
We're both part of an organization
called RAMPD, which is doing

504
00:36:59,750 --> 00:37:04,855
a fantastic work on that for the music,
the musicians with disabilities.

505
00:37:04,855 --> 00:37:10,094
Really, they really try to get
this conversation ongoing

506
00:37:10,127 --> 00:37:15,633
in a lot of different fields
and in musical styles, too.

507
00:37:15,666 --> 00:37:17,635
I really, really appreciate that.

508
00:37:17,668 --> 00:37:23,841
There is a diversity in these group
of musicians that RAMPD highlights

509
00:37:23,874 --> 00:37:27,478
which I really, really appreciate.

510
00:37:27,545 --> 00:37:31,349
Yeah, I'm fairly new to RAMPD.

511
00:37:31,349 --> 00:37:34,552
Oddly, I was very
surprised the other day.

512
00:37:34,585 --> 00:37:38,356
I got an email saying I'd
been nominated for vice president.

513
00:37:38,389 --> 00:37:42,760
So I guess I'm running for Vice President
of RAMPD right now,

514
00:37:42,793 --> 00:37:47,531
but I really like the work that
the organization is doing and

515
00:37:47,565 --> 00:37:52,770
really appreciate being able to be a part
of it and being able to represent it and

516
00:37:52,803 --> 00:37:59,277
to use it as a resource learn about
things that will help me to

517
00:37:59,744 --> 00:38:05,149
be a bigger changemaker within the other
organizations that I'm involved with.

518
00:38:05,182 --> 00:38:11,389
There is an interesting work that they're
doing with the professional RAMPD musicians,

519
00:38:11,389 --> 00:38:15,159
they're doing some meetings every month

520
00:38:15,192 --> 00:38:19,397
where they are presenting the latest

521
00:38:19,430 --> 00:38:22,300
activities or the latest collaborations,

522
00:38:22,333 --> 00:38:27,304
possibilities,
also meeting other people from all across.

523
00:38:27,338 --> 00:38:32,843
It's mostly the United States,
but we are several from Canada.

524
00:38:32,843 --> 00:38:38,516
There are several people from the UK,
several people from Europe.

525
00:38:38,549 --> 00:38:41,786
Just to be able to chat
a little bit and know what others

526
00:38:41,819 --> 00:38:45,022
are doing, that's already great.

527
00:38:45,022 --> 00:38:48,392
It's going so much further than that.

528
00:38:48,426 --> 00:38:54,498
But just that part with the conversation
between us and how people are doing

529
00:38:54,498 --> 00:38:59,870
in their career and how they
are able to connect with other

530
00:38:59,904 --> 00:39:03,441
organizations, that's fantastic.

531
00:39:04,342 --> 00:39:07,511
I have a last question for you.
Okay.

532
00:39:07,545 --> 00:39:12,883
This is about - speaking of collaboration
and meeting people, this is about

533
00:39:12,883 --> 00:39:17,288
collaborations and also inspirations.

534
00:39:17,321 --> 00:39:23,094
Are there people in your life
who really counted or had an influence

535
00:39:23,127 --> 00:39:29,600
in the way, guided you, had an influence
in the way your music journey progressed?

536
00:39:29,633 --> 00:39:33,904
Yeah, there are a lot.

537
00:39:34,271 --> 00:39:38,008
One musician that comes to mind
is a woman named Avin Baird,

538
00:39:38,042 --> 00:39:43,414
who's a very accomplished
finger picker and songwriter.

539
00:39:43,447 --> 00:39:45,282
She's really a fantastic musician.

540
00:39:45,316 --> 00:39:49,487
She's later in life now
and recently had a heart attack,

541
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,056
which has limited her ability to sing.

542
00:39:52,089 --> 00:39:57,027
But when I was
younger and when I was newly

543
00:39:57,595 --> 00:40:04,335
dealing with a spinal cord injury, she
really helped to nurture my talents along

544
00:40:04,368 --> 00:40:09,573
and was a big part of that and
making me, in a lot of ways,

545
00:40:09,573 --> 00:40:13,411
the songwriter and the player that I am today.

546
00:40:13,444 --> 00:40:18,149
More recently, I've been working with a
songwriter or musician, a blues musician

547
00:40:18,182 --> 00:40:22,453
named Kevin Richards, who's been
teaching me the Piedmont Blues styles

548
00:40:22,486 --> 00:40:24,855
and all kinds of other blues styles.

549
00:40:25,756 --> 00:40:31,028
When I was in school for recording, 
I worked with a...

550
00:40:31,028 --> 00:40:35,699
I had an internship with a group 
called Telarc International, 

551
00:40:35,699 --> 00:40:40,037
which records, where they
recorded Dizzy Gillespie 

552
00:40:40,037 --> 00:40:42,673
or the Cleveland Orchestra 
or the Atlanta Symphony.

553
00:40:42,706 --> 00:40:47,578
They did these amazing recordings.

554
00:40:47,578 --> 00:40:51,048
I'm in Cleveland, Ohio, and I
walked into the lobby, and there's a

555
00:40:51,048 --> 00:40:56,587
case of Grammys that I never even
knew we had one in Cleveland.

556
00:40:56,620 --> 00:41:00,591
They had hundreds of them
for these amazing recordings.

557
00:41:00,624 --> 00:41:03,294
Everybody was involved in that.

558
00:41:03,327 --> 00:41:09,800
It was really a big part of
helping to shape the way I look at

559
00:41:09,834 --> 00:41:14,839
presenting music and what is important
in the production of music.

560
00:41:14,872 --> 00:41:19,543
Probably most importantly
would be early in life, my mother

561
00:41:19,577 --> 00:41:23,013
and my father were big music lovers.

562
00:41:23,047 --> 00:41:26,517
My mom play guitar for me
and sing Jim Croce songs.

563
00:41:26,517 --> 00:41:29,920
My dad is a big jazz historian and would

564
00:41:29,954 --> 00:41:34,391
impress upon us all the great jazz music.

565
00:41:34,425 --> 00:41:38,562
We would go out and see classical music,
and there was just always music around.

566
00:41:38,596 --> 00:41:43,901
That really set me up for my love of music

567
00:41:43,934 --> 00:41:46,103
and my love of the history of music

568
00:41:46,136 --> 00:41:49,006
and the traditions that were involved.

569
00:41:49,039 --> 00:41:53,277
Then now, later in life, I've been married
for about seven years, and I've been

570
00:41:53,310 --> 00:41:55,079
with my wife about 14 years.

571
00:41:55,112 --> 00:41:58,582
She's been here with me through
this whole journey as a person

572
00:41:58,616 --> 00:42:02,820
with a disability and supporting me.

573
00:42:03,787 --> 00:42:09,193
I was telling you a story
before we started the interview about

574
00:42:09,226 --> 00:42:11,695
We were coming home from a baseball
game, and I got caught in

575
00:42:11,695 --> 00:42:15,432
a big puddle that I couldn't see what
was underneath it, and I got stuck.

576
00:42:15,466 --> 00:42:19,303
And she stood back and waited
until I figured it out, and I did.

577
00:42:19,303 --> 00:42:23,774
And a lot of times that's what
she will do, which I love, 

578
00:42:23,774 --> 00:42:31,248
because until I'm really saying help, she knows 
who I am, and she's going to let me figure it out, 

579
00:42:31,248 --> 00:42:36,453
because if she doesn't, then
I don't figure it out, and she knows it.

580
00:42:37,354 --> 00:42:39,123
But she's always there to support me once.

581
00:42:39,156 --> 00:42:46,330
If I can't figure it out, she's going to
climb in that puddle and pull me out.

582
00:42:46,363 --> 00:42:54,071
And she's always been right there with me,
supporting every little thing I do.

583
00:42:54,104 --> 00:43:01,879
I think those are the primary people
who have set me up to be who I am today.

584
00:43:02,146 --> 00:43:03,581
Well, thank you for the conversation.

585
00:43:03,614 --> 00:43:07,918
It was really nice chatting
with you about your career

586
00:43:07,918 --> 00:43:10,921
and your journey as a musician.

587
00:43:10,955 --> 00:43:14,358
I wish you all the best with your projects.

588
00:43:14,391 --> 00:43:15,960
Are you touring again?

589
00:43:15,993 --> 00:43:19,296
You told me that you're going to Montreal.

590
00:43:20,297 --> 00:43:24,835
We'll be in Montreal for the
Folk Alliance conference, and 

591
00:43:24,868 --> 00:43:32,943
I'm going to be in Chicago in about two
weeks at the Two Way Street Coffee House.

592
00:43:33,243 --> 00:43:39,483
I've got performances set up around
the country here and there, sporadically.

593
00:43:39,516 --> 00:43:43,454
I haven't set up a tour
since the pandemic.

594
00:43:43,921 --> 00:43:46,357
I almost did a couple of years ago.

595
00:43:46,357 --> 00:43:52,763
There was a great rail pass deal, and I
put out feelers, and people weren't ready

596
00:43:52,763 --> 00:43:55,399
to come back to doing house concerts.

597
00:43:55,432 --> 00:43:59,336
When I tour, house concerts
are really my first choice.

598
00:43:59,336 --> 00:44:03,107
I mean, obviously, if I could find
a big venue of 500 seats, and they're

599
00:44:03,140 --> 00:44:05,476
going to fill those seats, I'm there.

600
00:44:05,509 --> 00:44:10,481
But house concerts are my bread
and butter when I tour.

601
00:44:10,514 --> 00:44:14,018
We're getting close to that, but my teaching 
schedule has become so busy that 

602
00:44:15,786 --> 00:44:17,321
I'm trying to manage it.

603
00:44:17,354 --> 00:44:20,057
I'm trying to shut up a couple

604
00:44:20,057 --> 00:44:24,161
of nonprofit organizations, so I have
a little more time for it.

605
00:44:24,161 --> 00:44:29,199
Okay. Well, good luck with everything and enjoy.

606
00:44:29,233 --> 00:44:30,567
Well, thank you.

607
00:44:30,601 --> 00:44:36,573
Thank you for having me and spreading
the word about how capable we all are.

608
00:44:37,741 --> 00:44:38,208
Yes.

609
00:44:38,242 --> 00:44:42,112
We're an important voice
in the music world, so thank you.

610
00:44:42,146 --> 00:44:45,682
Well, have a fantastic day and talk soon.

611
00:44:45,716 --> 00:44:47,251
Okay.
Thank you.

612
00:44:47,284 --> 00:44:48,752
Bye.
Take care.

613
00:44:48,786 --> 00:44:49,787
Thank you.

614
00:44:50,054 --> 00:44:55,192
[Closing theme music]