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[Opening theme music]

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Hello, and welcome to this episode
of ArtsAbly in Conversation.

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My name is Diane Kolin.

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This series presents artists, academics,
and project leaders who dedicate their

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time and energy to a better accessibility
for people with disabilities in the arts.

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You can find more of these conversations
on our website, artsably.com,

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which is spelled A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com.

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[Theme music]

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Today, Artsably is in conversation
with Lisa Sniderman, a musical theater

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playwright, a songwriter, a ukulele
player, and a vocalist, 

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known by her artist's name, 
Aoede, living in California.

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You can find the resources mentioned
by Lisa Sniderman during this episode 

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on ArtsAbly's website in the blog section.

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[Rhythmic music]

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[Sounds of people connecting on Zoom]

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Hey, everybody.
Check this out.

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What makes a live theater experience?

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I'm driven to find ways to take
the spectacle of live theater,

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the visuals, the audio,
and especially the feel of being

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in community with a live audience,
and to create comparable, immersive,

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engaging experiences
for a virtual audience.

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I'm Lisa Sniderman.

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I'm the playwright and co-composer
for The Grieving Project.

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For 16 years, I've lived
with rare chronic illness, and I

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kept so busy creating I realized I
had forgotten to grieve my illness.

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And I've also been home for years, missing
and unable to attend live theater.

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And I had this vision
of bringing live theater experience

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to those like me in community with others
through hybrid stage performances,

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which sparked The Grieving Project.

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My name is Suzanne Richard, the theatrical
director of The Grieving Project.

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I wanted people to be able to
go to the theater, and if they couldn't

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go to the theater, to be there
watching a show in community with others.

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My name is Jessica Wallach,
and I am the Accessibility Director

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of The Grieving Project.

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We want people to have multiple
access points to experience this show.

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My name is Chistopher Morrison.

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I'm the Digital Experience Director
for the Grieving Project.

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In order to bring in the show
into the metaverse space, we brought in a

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three-camera team and a live stream team.

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Inside that metaverse space,
there are three hanging screens

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over our digital twin of the theater.

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We So I had a digital twin of the lobby
of the theater where our digital audience

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could meet in avatar form, talk with each
other, obviously get some instructions

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about how the space would work.

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Hi, my name is Enoch Chan.

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I am video director, a live video director
on Grieving Project.

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It very much became about really
allowing for the audience to choose

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whatever moment they want to see, just
like they're actually in in light play.

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[Ambient music]

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I was independent, and I was strong.

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I had passions and songs and
was free to follow dreams.

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I didn't even give it thought.

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One word that encapsulates how this
made you feel or what it made you think.

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Cool, curious, engaging,
interesting, introspective, challenging.

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For those of us who can't go see
big shows like Water for Elephants

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and The Outsiders in Hell's Kitchen,
it's important that we, too, have

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engaging, immersive theater experiences
beyond Broadway on demand.

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And this proof of concept
is only the beginning.

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[End of the presentation.]

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Welcome to this new episode
of ArtsAbly in Conversation.

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Today, I am with Lisa Sniderman,
who is a musical theater playwright,

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a songwriter, a ukulily player, and
a vocalist known by her artist's name, A.

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Aoede, living in California.
Welcome, Lisa.

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Thank you.
It's so great to be here.

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Thank you for being with us today.

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It's great to talk with you.

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I know you have a lot
of projects going on, a lot of

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talents that you developed over the year.

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I am very interested in knowing
a little bit more about you.

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As a first question, can you
talk about your background, your story,

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Yes.
I'm Lis.

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I go by she/her, and I'm in
the San Francisco Bay Area, California.

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Okay, thank you.

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How did it start all that?

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How did you come to music and arts?

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Well, I have been living
with a rare chronic illness for 16

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and a half years, two actually.

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Dermatomyositis, which is a progressive muscle 
weakness disease that affects my muscles,

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skin, stamina, energy, and something
called common variable immune deficiency.

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That impacts my immune system
and that means I make few antibodies.

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I've been homebound even before
the pandemic due to compromised immunity.

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Let's take us back, as you said, years
before all of this happened, so that you

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get a sense of that's where I am now.

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This is where I started.

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I started making music in a about 2006
under my artist persona, Aoede.

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I chose this name because she was
the muse of song in Greek mythology.

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I actually wanted to be
affiliated with inspiration, just

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to remind myself to be inspired
and to continually inspire others.

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Actually in - I focused on albums and folk pop rock,

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initially, in a singer-songwriter genre.

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Then in 2010, I actually
had a big health flare.

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I was diagnosed in '08 with
the first of my muscle diseases.

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In '10, I had a big flare
that hospitalized me.

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I was unable to use my muscles, and so
I had to relearn how to do everything,

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basic functions, sit, play,
stand, and relearn my instruments.

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That was a big transition in my life.

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I shifted my focus in 2012 to musical

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theater, knowing that it was not really

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in the cards for me anymore
to be doing my singer-songwriter dream.

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I wasn't going to be able to tour.
I couldn't do live performances.

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So I had to shift and figure out,
how do I keep my dreams alive?

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And so at that point,
I started creating young adult

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fantasy musicals as audiobooks.

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And I blended character voices
and narration and full musical scores.

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So think of a radio play.
I started putting those out in 2012.

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At the time, I had released, I think,
well, actually, over time, I've released

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about 10 albums, including three
of these fantasy musical audiobooks

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that I had put onto - that I'd recorded.

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And then I adapted some
of those to stage plays.

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So basically, I had this health setback
that prevented me

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from fully staging my work.

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And that was a big thing because
I was really getting the musical theater

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bug, but I wasn't able to move forward.

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So the main thing is I created art,
and I realized this only recently,

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to escape from my illness.

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And then I started making music
and theater to help others

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struggling with chronic illness thrive.

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I started integrating my illness
into my art, and I discovered that

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music and art are my lifelines,
and I just can't stop creating.

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I think when COVID hit, it opened
this possibility of connecting everywhere

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in the world that then became the normal.

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Did it influence your thoughts?

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Okay, Let's continue that
and open it to the world.

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There is no reason why we couldn't make it

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part of this project where everybody

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could connect from everywhere.

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Yeah.

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In my world, that leads to
what I'm doing artistically

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or what I ended up doing is because...

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So I had spent so much time basically
creating that I realized I hadn't grieved

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my illness for all of these years.

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I just sort of - and a lot of us do this.

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We put ourselves directly
into our work and we just keep going.

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Sometimes it's a society thing
that tells us, be strong.

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Don't let your outside
show what's going on on the inside.

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And so I never really grieved,
and that was a big thing.

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So it sparked me to create
this project that I can talk about.

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But when you talk about COVID,
it all happened during the pandemic.

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So it was a time where not only was I
looking at like, Oh, all of these things

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that I may not have grieved
with my illness and changed identity,

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but here we have a pandemic.

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So now we have loss on top
of it that we were all feeling

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that was also brought to that project,
including how it was created.

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Just the fact that we had
to be in different places.

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I couldn't be physically at the studio.

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My health doesn't allow that.

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So my producer was at the studio.

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So the pandemic helped shape the projects
that I did during those years, for sure.

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I think it also opened so much
possibilities to other artists just

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to imagine, Okay, I'm an artist creating
from my bed, but now I can create from

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a theater with a computer, with someone
helping me put a computer there.

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I saw so many artists having new ideas
and also gaining confidence

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on the fact that there was
a new possibility that was opening.

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Absolutely.

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For some of us living with illness
and disabilities, that wasn't new.

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I'm not saying the ability
to connect with theater.

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You'll see that the project
I'm talking about is exactly that,

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bringing live theater experience
to people who can't attend like me.

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However, but first, even Zoom,
that was something for some people.

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I'd been on Zoom for years.

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That had been my main way of connecting.

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And I gave workshops on things that I
was doing to chronic illness communities.

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So I was already in that realm.

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In other words, the isolation factor
wasn't as big for me for the pandemic

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as it was for some because
I had already been operating that way.

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And a lot of I had talked to who had
been living with illness and not so much

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out in the world were guidance
to other people when it happened because

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we've been there, we've been isolated.

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Yeah. It reminds me of the talks we can have

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in disability studies and critical
disability studies,

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where really the medical model
of disability, framing everything around

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whatever a condition is,
blocks the humanity 

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and the social parts of the person.

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Absolutely.

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I always feel this.
I am not my disease.

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I have a disease, and it does shape part
of my identity, as does disability.

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I understand that about myself,
but I am first and foremost an artist.

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I am not saying, Hey,
I am Dermatomyositis.

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That is not me.

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That's exactly what I mean by, I
think we're on the same page about that,

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that I'm not the medical model either.

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Speaking of medical model,
you did a very interesting project.

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It's a video where you explain
your experience in this progression of

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the disease, and it's an animated video.

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Can you talk about this project?

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Keep Shining, if that's the one
you're talking about.

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Yeah.

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This was spark for the project
that I'm going to be telling you about

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called The Grieving Project.

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The reason that it is such a spark
for me is I think, as I was saying,

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I denied or I avoided really
thinking about what happened to me back

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when I was in the hospital.
Well, that happened in 2010.

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It was 2019 when I was
creating Keep Shining.

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And I had interviewed a whole bunch
of people for a project

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called Lights in the Darkness.

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I thought, like I had written a book.

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I wanted to share my memoir.

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It's called A Light in the Darkness:
Transcending Chronic Illness

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Through the Power of Art and Attitude.

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And when I thought to myself,
what's the best way that I want

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to share this with the world.

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It was in collaboration
with other artists.

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I looked all over the world to find people
who are also creating to heal

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and did this Lights in the Darkness.

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I created a song that was based on all
of our experiences called Keep Shining.

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It wasn't until I created the video
for it that I realized this is my story.

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As it was unfolding that, Oh,
my gosh, the storyboard is the hospital.

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Oh, my gosh, the storyboard
is recovery, et cetera.

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That that was the first symbol to me.

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I hadn't grieved my illness.

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A nurse, when I was getting infusions
at the time, saw this video and said,

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your video can help others access their
feelings in a way that words alone can't.

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And that sparked me
to create The Grieving Project

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as a spoken word musical audiobook.

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So can you talk about this project,
The Grieving Project?

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Absolutely.

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So not only did I describe that I've
been home due to health, but I've also

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been able to not attend live theater.

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And I envision bringing the spectacle
of live theater to others.

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And whether that's the audio, the visuals,
the feeling of being in community

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with others, all of that
sparked this vision to adapt an audiobook

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that I created during the pandemic
to a hybrid stage musical.

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I don't want to spend a ton of time
on the audiobook, but I'll just say

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during the pandemic, that was my source
and inspiration was like, I basically

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put together 14 tracks, and they all
revolved around grieving and thriving.

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So seven related to the stages of grief
and seven related to these stages

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that I created of thriving because
I didn't want to stop at acceptance.

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That doesn't go far enough in my eyes.

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So anyways, I created this.

230
00:15:42,308 --> 00:15:44,009
I've started adapting it.

231
00:15:44,009 --> 00:15:48,747
And my dream is to stage this,
but I can't physically be part of it.

232
00:15:48,781 --> 00:15:53,819
We ask ourselves, What do you do if
you can't realize your dream in person?

233
00:15:53,852 --> 00:15:58,257
This was what came to me about
this idea of the Grieving Project.

234
00:15:58,290 --> 00:16:02,561
When I started adapting it,
this goal is to reimagine theater

235
00:16:02,594 --> 00:16:06,165
and bring experiences to people
who can't attend live shows.

236
00:16:06,198 --> 00:16:09,535
We did this with a hybrid
disability center musical

237
00:16:09,568 --> 00:16:13,172
that blends live and virtual theater.

238
00:16:13,405 --> 00:16:17,976
Basically, think about If I describe
what we did as a proof of concept,

239
00:16:18,010 --> 00:16:23,349
which I'll describe in a little bit,
it's like you're able to experience it.

240
00:16:23,349 --> 00:16:26,285
If you can go in person,
you can see it in a theater live.

241
00:16:26,285 --> 00:16:31,957
If you can't, like me, you go
into a virtual computer generated space.

242
00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:33,525
Think of it like that.

243
00:16:33,525 --> 00:16:35,461
We meet, Diane.

244
00:16:35,494 --> 00:16:41,500
We sit and we meet as avatars in a lobby,
and we can talk, and we can see things

245
00:16:41,533 --> 00:16:44,837
around us, and then we can go into
the theater and watch the show together.

246
00:16:44,837 --> 00:16:46,705
It's a community experience.

247
00:16:46,739 --> 00:16:52,344
It's an opportunity to engage and bring
this idea of spectacle to others.

248
00:16:52,378 --> 00:16:57,683
In the story, it's set pre-pandemic,
where there's four disabled artists

249
00:16:57,683 --> 00:17:01,520
that compete on a reality show
called Disabled Got Talent.

250
00:17:01,553 --> 00:17:07,493
As the story progresses, we explore themes
of illness and mental health

251
00:17:07,526 --> 00:17:11,897
and identity and transformation
through the lens of this reality show.

252
00:17:11,930 --> 00:17:15,300
The 14 stages of Grieving
and Thriving that I was mentioning

253
00:17:15,334 --> 00:17:17,569
mirror the competition rounds.

254
00:17:17,569 --> 00:17:21,206
So Lis is this playwright
and a game developer with

255
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,711
a progressive muscle weakness who dreams
of launching this musical carnival game

256
00:17:25,744 --> 00:17:26,945
called Wonder Haven.

257
00:17:26,979 --> 00:17:31,784
When the pandemic hits,
it halts the contest, and the characters

258
00:17:31,784 --> 00:17:35,854
are forced to decide, do they
want to continue this contest?

259
00:17:35,888 --> 00:17:41,093
And so they end up in Wonder Haven
in some fashion, this world

260
00:17:41,126 --> 00:17:43,262
that Lis has created.

261
00:17:43,295 --> 00:17:47,566
And the key question that it's asking
is, how can we let the light in

262
00:17:47,566 --> 00:17:49,835
and keep our dreams alive?

263
00:17:49,868 --> 00:17:55,007
And that is what I'm also exploring as a
alternate title is how the light gets in.

264
00:17:55,007 --> 00:17:57,342
So that's another thing
that I'm playing with.

265
00:17:57,376 --> 00:18:05,117
And I'll just say really quickly to
sum this project, we secured $65,000 to

266
00:18:05,117 --> 00:18:10,656
produce a proof of concept in Baltimore,
working with Open Circle Theater.

267
00:18:10,689 --> 00:18:16,061
They're a disability-led
theater in the DC Metro area.

268
00:18:16,095 --> 00:18:20,232
We were able to do this proof of concept.

269
00:18:20,265 --> 00:18:25,804
This will evolve into a full hybrid
production through '27, we're thinking.

270
00:18:25,804 --> 00:18:28,240
Musicals take a long time to get to stage.

271
00:18:28,273 --> 00:18:31,810
The exciting thing is we
were It's selected for a Doris Duke

272
00:18:31,844 --> 00:18:36,115
Performing Arts Technology Lab R&D grant.

273
00:18:36,148 --> 00:18:40,619
That means that we are exploring the tech
and the accessibility elements for

274
00:18:40,652 --> 00:18:43,222
the project over the next five months.

275
00:18:43,255 --> 00:18:47,893
It's important to me. We'll talk
about accessibility specifically and

276
00:18:47,926 --> 00:18:50,262
why that's so important to me personally.

277
00:18:50,295 --> 00:18:54,066
But this is also not
just about the concept.

278
00:18:54,099 --> 00:18:58,637
It's so easy to talk to people and go,
Wow, look at this cool

279
00:18:58,637 --> 00:19:03,842
virtual lobby that you've created! 
But I also want to root the story in

280
00:19:03,842 --> 00:19:09,581
centering disability, authentic,
making sure that it's an emotionally

281
00:19:09,581 --> 00:19:13,919
driven story and not just
an interesting concept.

282
00:19:13,952 --> 00:19:17,222
Then the last thing I'll say
is it's developing a model for

283
00:19:17,256 --> 00:19:19,324
radically accessible hybrid theater.

284
00:19:19,358 --> 00:19:21,059
That's the intent of this.

285
00:19:21,093 --> 00:19:25,330
It's fun to be pioneering
this new concept.

286
00:19:25,364 --> 00:19:30,836
It's really interesting because
working on music

287
00:19:30,869 --> 00:19:35,073
specifically,
and trying to work with people who can

288
00:19:35,107 --> 00:19:40,879
find solutions of playing differently,

289
00:19:40,879 --> 00:19:46,985
like teaching children to see 
music education in another way

290
00:19:46,985 --> 00:19:49,288
and to integrate ASL,

291
00:19:49,321 --> 00:19:55,561
but also to play with
the virtual instruments

292
00:19:55,594 --> 00:19:57,829
that could allow to play without touch.

293
00:19:57,863 --> 00:20:02,568
But we are so so far from what

294
00:20:02,601 --> 00:20:05,637
the technology in theater can offer.

295
00:20:05,637 --> 00:20:11,877
It must be fun to think of the new
generation of theater where artificial

296
00:20:11,910 --> 00:20:17,482
intelligence or IT could be included,
and then we are in the whole universe.

297
00:20:17,482 --> 00:20:19,651
That's what we are doing with your team.

298
00:20:19,918 --> 00:20:22,988
That's what we're striving to do.

299
00:20:22,988 --> 00:20:25,591
I will say, I feel like
we have a little ways to go

300
00:20:25,624 --> 00:20:27,092
with accessibility, particularly.

301
00:20:27,125 --> 00:20:28,961
Here's an example.

302
00:20:28,994 --> 00:20:34,967
When we did our proof concept, we got
a first-hand look at, okay, most people

303
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:40,639
will log into a website in order to
create an avatar, and then they get into

304
00:20:40,672 --> 00:20:44,042
a space that is now the virtual theater.
It's just a website.

305
00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:45,944
It's not a whole new app.

306
00:20:45,978 --> 00:20:51,750
However, if you are low vision
or blind, you may need a screen reader.

307
00:20:51,783 --> 00:20:56,088
Well, how much of this
is keyboard-based versus mouse?

308
00:20:56,121 --> 00:20:59,224
What can the screen reader read and do?

309
00:20:59,224 --> 00:21:04,396
How efficient? How can you navigate these areas?

310
00:21:04,429 --> 00:21:06,765
That's just one example.

311
00:21:06,765 --> 00:21:11,470
Then within the platform itself,
are there ways that we can use,

312
00:21:11,470 --> 00:21:18,510
not saying haptics, but all kinds
of different tools for immersive?

313
00:21:18,543 --> 00:21:22,381
There's so many great things happening,
and we get an opportunity to work with

314
00:21:22,381 --> 00:21:28,220
XR Access, which is a consortium out
of Cornell, to be a consultant on this.

315
00:21:28,253 --> 00:21:32,290
I'm really excited by that because they
work with with disability, specifically

316
00:21:32,324 --> 00:21:37,696
with XR and mixed reality and AR,
all these terms that are in relation

317
00:21:37,729 --> 00:21:43,602
to the VR world without necessarily
having to have VR glasses on.

318
00:21:43,602 --> 00:21:49,441
There's a lot, like you say,
it's opening up in an interesting way.

319
00:21:49,474 --> 00:21:52,544
But I also say, so one of
the most exciting things for me

320
00:21:52,544 --> 00:21:55,580
was my participation was by robot.

321
00:21:55,614 --> 00:22:01,386
I'm reimagining access in different 
ways than just traditional

322
00:22:01,420 --> 00:22:04,790
when we think of the physical access.

323
00:22:04,823 --> 00:22:06,525
Obviously, we think of digital access.

324
00:22:06,558 --> 00:22:08,260
We'll talk about what accessibility means.

325
00:22:08,293 --> 00:22:14,499
But for me, that also is expanding it
because I couldn't be there.

326
00:22:14,533 --> 00:22:18,170
Now people people like me as a behind
the scenes, so to speak, as a playwright

327
00:22:18,203 --> 00:22:21,139
or a designer, can participate.

328
00:22:21,173 --> 00:22:26,078
I did that for our whole production
for two weeks by robot.

329
00:22:26,111 --> 00:22:28,647
That means I was able
to control the robot from home.

330
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:34,686
I'm able to navigate in the space
differently than just say, relegated to

331
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,221
a Zoom square in the corner.

332
00:22:36,321 --> 00:22:37,756
It's amazing.

333
00:22:37,789 --> 00:22:39,791
It's amazing, yeah.

334
00:22:39,825 --> 00:22:43,695
It's a good segue to this question,
what does accessibility

335
00:22:43,729 --> 00:22:45,864
in the arts mean for you?

336
00:22:46,298 --> 00:22:47,833
Yeah.

337
00:22:47,866 --> 00:22:53,105
In general, I believe that it
means everybody, regardless of ability,

338
00:22:53,138 --> 00:22:58,376
can create and experience and enjoy art
fully and without barriers.

339
00:22:58,410 --> 00:23:04,783
When we talked what I was sharing
a little bit, I think my work is more

340
00:23:04,783 --> 00:23:09,387
on the digital right now side
and the inclusive side, making sure

341
00:23:09,387 --> 00:23:12,758
people with disabilities
are part of design, et cetera.

342
00:23:12,791 --> 00:23:17,129
But access extends to physical,
sensory, and cognitive,

343
00:23:17,162 --> 00:23:20,999
and programmatic, all these areas.

344
00:23:21,032 --> 00:23:26,805
In my work, I feel like
my advocacy has been around...

345
00:23:26,805 --> 00:23:31,076
I've been a passionate artist, and I've
worked extensively as advocate in the

346
00:23:31,109 --> 00:23:34,479
chronic illness communities since 2018.

347
00:23:34,513 --> 00:23:40,118
So my take is like, I'm ensuring
that people with chronic illness can

348
00:23:40,152 --> 00:23:42,687
have access to arts in different ways.

349
00:23:42,687 --> 00:23:47,959
When I launched, like I say, a light
in the darkness that I was talking about.

350
00:23:47,993 --> 00:23:52,597
I collaborated with 50 artists,
and I produced live multimedia events.

351
00:23:52,631 --> 00:23:58,103
I hosted an online summit in June of 2020
called How to Thrive with Chronic Illness

352
00:23:58,136 --> 00:24:04,409
that had 1,800 participants after a year
of videoing interviews with experts that

353
00:24:04,442 --> 00:24:07,546
I recorded from home and many from bed.

354
00:24:07,579 --> 00:24:11,082
This is all stuff that I'm doing
as somebody living with chronic illness

355
00:24:11,082 --> 00:24:13,919
to help others in my community thrive.

356
00:24:13,952 --> 00:24:18,657
Then I've also
engaged with disabled communities over

357
00:24:18,690 --> 00:24:21,460
the Grieving Project as the audiobook.

358
00:24:21,493 --> 00:24:26,164
I have a support group
that is part of my own illness community

359
00:24:26,198 --> 00:24:30,035
called Myocytis Support
and Understanding, where I ran workshops.

360
00:24:30,068 --> 00:24:35,607
I've been able to work with
theater company for a virtual reading

361
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,343
where I cast disabled actors.

362
00:24:38,376 --> 00:24:43,949
I've worked with Open Circle Theater
on accessibility-driven virtual

363
00:24:43,982 --> 00:24:46,284
workshops, and even my work in RAMPD.

364
00:24:46,284 --> 00:24:49,321
RAMPD is Recording Artists and
Music Professionals with Disabilities.

365
00:24:49,354 --> 00:24:53,458
Diane knows because she's
a professional member of RAMPD, too.

366
00:24:53,491 --> 00:24:56,494
I was Secretary and Engagement Coach here.

367
00:24:56,528 --> 00:25:00,699
Even before that, I was working
on partnerships to help make

368
00:25:00,732 --> 00:25:02,767
the Grammys more accessible.

369
00:25:02,767 --> 00:25:06,771
A lot of my work actually
is around access in different ways

370
00:25:06,805 --> 00:25:12,377
than I would have ever thought
that access is actually happening.

371
00:25:12,410 --> 00:25:16,181
Then directly in my project,
in the Grieving Project,

372
00:25:16,214 --> 00:25:20,418
it is disability-led, created for,
by, with people with disabilities,

373
00:25:20,452 --> 00:25:22,988
with rooted in accessibility.

374
00:25:22,988 --> 00:25:25,090
We hired a accessibility director.

375
00:25:25,123 --> 00:25:28,660
We had a director
of artistic sign language.

376
00:25:28,693 --> 00:25:33,198
We had the basic, when I would
say basic, like assistive devices,

377
00:25:33,231 --> 00:25:34,766
if people need it, et cetera.

378
00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:40,372
But then beyond that, as I was saying,
we were trying to figure out how

379
00:25:40,372 --> 00:25:46,344
do we really include everyone
from the top of this project,

380
00:25:46,344 --> 00:25:51,750
from building in access rather than
thinking about access as an afterthought.

381
00:25:51,783 --> 00:25:56,855
That's the key for our project is we say, Hey, 

382
00:25:56,855 --> 00:25:59,658
access extends to all aspects

383
00:25:59,691 --> 00:26:02,727
of the project and all people, including me.

384
00:26:02,727 --> 00:26:06,331
We're not thinking just our audiences.

385
00:26:06,464 --> 00:26:11,136
What has been fabulous in this initiative
to work with the Grammys

386
00:26:11,169 --> 00:26:13,238
is that they were responding.

387
00:26:13,271 --> 00:26:20,312
They were actually listening which is rare
for big organizations that are like,

388
00:26:20,345 --> 00:26:24,282
Oh, no, we have to accessibilize
our thing again.

389
00:26:24,282 --> 00:26:25,350
No, not at all.

390
00:26:25,383 --> 00:26:27,419
They were like, Okay,
these people are awesome.

391
00:26:27,452 --> 00:26:29,321
Let's listen to them.

392
00:26:29,354 --> 00:26:32,090
Yeah, Yes, but Diane, and.
Oh, yes, and that.

393
00:26:32,123 --> 00:26:36,027
And accessibility is good for everyone.

394
00:26:36,061 --> 00:26:39,097
And that is something
that we're starting to really...

395
00:26:39,130 --> 00:26:41,199
That message is coming across.

396
00:26:41,232 --> 00:26:45,003
I've heard it touted
many times of curb cuts.

397
00:26:45,003 --> 00:26:48,073
That initially it might
have been for wheelchairs.

398
00:26:48,106 --> 00:26:54,412
But people who have babies in strollers,
moms with babies in strollers, use them.

399
00:26:54,446 --> 00:26:59,684
So in other words, if we
create accessible experiences,

400
00:26:59,684 --> 00:27:01,486
then We're doing it for more.

401
00:27:01,519 --> 00:27:06,358
In my project, my priority,
my focus is people with

402
00:27:06,358 --> 00:27:07,792
chronic illness and disabilities.

403
00:27:07,826 --> 00:27:13,565
And yet I know that it's going
to speak to economic, it's going

404
00:27:13,598 --> 00:27:16,768
to speak to geography, people
who can't get to theater for that,

405
00:27:16,768 --> 00:27:20,705
for people who have problems
with physical access at theaters.

406
00:27:20,705 --> 00:27:24,843
So there's different communities
that we're going to be able to serve.

407
00:27:24,843 --> 00:27:28,079
And of course, since it's online,
we're talking worldwide now.

408
00:27:28,113 --> 00:27:31,016
So this is exciting It's exciting to me.

409
00:27:31,049 --> 00:27:36,521
I'm not saying we're the first at all to
be creating hybrid theater by any means,

410
00:27:36,554 --> 00:27:42,460
but I don't see a lot of hybrid theater
creating full musicals in a metaverse

411
00:27:42,494 --> 00:27:44,462
style, like a virtual environment.

412
00:27:44,462 --> 00:27:48,266
I also don't see it that's
rooted in disability.

413
00:27:48,299 --> 00:27:52,837
That's what I feel like our advantage
or whatever we call it

414
00:27:52,871 --> 00:27:55,507
that we can bring to the table.

415
00:27:55,740 --> 00:27:57,108
Absolutely.

416
00:27:57,342 --> 00:27:59,144
Well, this is fantastic.

417
00:27:59,144 --> 00:28:02,180
Congratulations because it's really huge.

418
00:28:02,213 --> 00:28:07,619
Even if it's just a proof of concept right
now, everything you've accomplished

419
00:28:07,652 --> 00:28:12,157
so far with this team, it's great.

420
00:28:12,157 --> 00:28:13,692
Thank you.

421
00:28:13,725 --> 00:28:16,461
I have a last question for you.

422
00:28:16,494 --> 00:28:23,101
It's about people who might have impacted
you in your career or inspired you.

423
00:28:23,134 --> 00:28:27,405
If you had to think of one or two people
who really counted in the progression

424
00:28:27,439 --> 00:28:30,008
of your career, who would it be and why?

425
00:28:31,109 --> 00:28:31,943
Yeah.

426
00:28:31,976 --> 00:28:37,916
Honestly, right now, because I wasn't
necessarily thinking of the past so much,

427
00:28:37,949 --> 00:28:40,618
is the present, and that is Lachi.

428
00:28:40,652 --> 00:28:47,859
So RAMPD has at its helm, the definition
of a rock star, in my opinion.

429
00:28:47,892 --> 00:28:49,761
She's the founder of RAMPD.

430
00:28:49,794 --> 00:28:55,967
She was the past president for the times
that I served alongside her for a while.

431
00:28:55,967 --> 00:28:59,504
And I've served alongside her
while she was president.

432
00:28:59,537 --> 00:29:03,975
And so I've gotten to know her
monthly, through monthly meetings,

433
00:29:04,008 --> 00:29:06,544
et cetera, as well as different ways.

434
00:29:06,578 --> 00:29:11,750
Watching her lead and grow RAMPD
while skyrocketing her own career

435
00:29:11,783 --> 00:29:14,119
has been very motivating and empowering.

436
00:29:14,119 --> 00:29:17,822
She gives all of us
a platform to rise and shine.

437
00:29:17,856 --> 00:29:21,059
She shines her light brightly
in everything she does.

438
00:29:21,092 --> 00:29:25,563
She's this exceptional leader,
and she's a staunch, tireless advocate

439
00:29:25,563 --> 00:29:27,966
and uber talented artist.

440
00:29:27,966 --> 00:29:34,806
She promotes disability advocacy work
while excelling in her own career.

441
00:29:34,806 --> 00:29:37,542
To me, it's like she
elevates disability culture,

442
00:29:37,542 --> 00:29:42,247
fights for authentic representation,
and promotes identity pride.

443
00:29:42,247 --> 00:29:48,386
I have had this excellent role model
and shows me, let's put it this way,

444
00:29:48,419 --> 00:29:52,624
when I first was on the fence about how

445
00:29:52,624 --> 00:29:55,927
I personally felt as a disabled artist,

446
00:29:55,927 --> 00:29:58,596
I was still using differently able.

447
00:29:58,630 --> 00:30:02,200
I was still using terms like that because

448
00:30:02,233 --> 00:30:05,837
I had a community who thought that dis

449
00:30:05,870 --> 00:30:12,210
meant different, separate in a negative
way, not necessarily in a way that was like, 

450
00:30:12,210 --> 00:30:14,612
Hey, we should celebrate this.
This is part of us.

451
00:30:14,646 --> 00:30:16,114
We're cool.

452
00:30:16,147 --> 00:30:22,086
We bring problem solving in all
these different ways because not despite.

453
00:30:22,287 --> 00:30:24,389
I always think of that.

454
00:30:24,422 --> 00:30:27,425
I don't know if I got that
from Lachi, but that feeling

455
00:30:27,425 --> 00:30:30,828
for me is because not despite.

456
00:30:30,862 --> 00:30:38,336
She's bold and unapologetic, and she makes
disability visibility a priority.

457
00:30:38,369 --> 00:30:43,274
It doesn't matter whether she's performing
or speaking to somebody at the White House 

458
00:30:43,274 --> 00:30:46,744
or on a call with RAMPD members.

459
00:30:46,778 --> 00:30:51,783
Everywhere that I've been able
to experience what she brings

460
00:30:51,816 --> 00:30:54,052
has been very empowering.

461
00:30:54,085 --> 00:30:56,688
If you use the word inspiration
with her, she might shoot you.

462
00:30:56,688 --> 00:31:02,493
She always says, and this is fascinating,
It's interesting to me because I have

463
00:31:02,527 --> 00:31:06,331
affiliated myself with inspiration, muse.

464
00:31:06,364 --> 00:31:10,134
I'm the one who's supposed to
inspire in my head as my artist persona.

465
00:31:10,168 --> 00:31:16,307
And that extended into my life,
which made it hard to grieve in some ways

466
00:31:16,341 --> 00:31:21,646
because I'm always supposed to
be the positive one and not be.

467
00:31:21,679 --> 00:31:25,717
So for her, an inspiration,
we had a conversation once that

468
00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:30,088
it's about, what do I inspire you to do?

469
00:31:30,121 --> 00:31:31,089
To act?

470
00:31:31,122 --> 00:31:33,925
And so that's where she
wants to be affiliated

471
00:31:33,958 --> 00:31:36,327
with inspiration in some fashion.

472
00:31:36,361 --> 00:31:40,064
But a lot of people in the disability
world have this whole thing about

473
00:31:40,064 --> 00:31:45,169
"disability porn," meaning just because
somebody gets out of bed and gets to

474
00:31:45,203 --> 00:31:47,872
the store, don't mean that's inspiring.

475
00:31:47,905 --> 00:31:49,340
That's just what they do.

476
00:31:49,374 --> 00:31:53,478
And I'm saying it facetiously because
it's true.

477
00:31:53,511 --> 00:31:57,815
Even my director has shared
an experience about her pumping gas

478
00:31:57,849 --> 00:32:00,184
while in a wheelchair,
and that being something

479
00:32:00,184 --> 00:32:04,222
that somebody else had to 
comment on as very inspiring.

480
00:32:04,255 --> 00:32:09,227
Now, I know that some of
these people are well-intentioned.

481
00:32:09,260 --> 00:32:13,197
They are not meaning harm
to Susie in this case.

482
00:32:13,231 --> 00:32:15,466
They just don't know.

483
00:32:16,067 --> 00:32:18,069
I don't know.

484
00:32:18,069 --> 00:32:21,339
We could have a conversation
for 40 more minutes on this.

485
00:32:21,372 --> 00:32:22,240
Yeah, for sure.

486
00:32:22,273 --> 00:32:25,043
But speaking of conversation,
it comes with the conversation.

487
00:32:25,043 --> 00:32:26,744
It comes with the communication.

488
00:32:26,778 --> 00:32:27,679
It comes with...

489
00:32:27,712 --> 00:32:31,849
I'm a wheelchair user,
so I have that a lot.

490
00:32:31,883 --> 00:32:35,486
People come to me and say,
Oh, you're so inspiring.

491
00:32:35,486 --> 00:32:43,027
That's the way people
have been taught to see disability.

492
00:32:43,227 --> 00:32:46,698
Now, how to change the narrative,
how to change the education,

493
00:32:46,731 --> 00:32:51,803
and how to change the non-intentional

494
00:32:51,836 --> 00:32:55,840
behavior, it's by speaking with people.

495
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,177
I constantly, constantly have that.

496
00:32:59,210 --> 00:33:01,946
Yes, I can imagine.

497
00:33:01,980 --> 00:33:05,683
And, yes, and that, for me,
I'm okay with being inspirational,

498
00:33:05,683 --> 00:33:12,390
not because I'm disabled, but because
something I'm doing is giving somebody

499
00:33:12,390 --> 00:33:14,692
an impact of some sort.

500
00:33:14,726 --> 00:33:17,128
And Lachi does that for me.

501
00:33:17,161 --> 00:33:21,232
So yes, she does motivate me sometimes
to act, and that's what she's about.

502
00:33:21,265 --> 00:33:22,767
That's where the inspiration comes in.

503
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,637
So yes, if somebody says,
Wow, you're really inspirational,

504
00:33:26,637 --> 00:33:29,007
that's okay for my artist identity.

505
00:33:29,007 --> 00:33:35,279
It may not be okay my disability identity,
but it's okay for me personally.

506
00:33:35,313 --> 00:33:37,181
That's just where I'm at.

507
00:33:37,348 --> 00:33:40,485
I'm sure you're going to be
a role model for someone

508
00:33:40,518 --> 00:33:43,688
who's listening or seeing your work.

509
00:33:43,855 --> 00:33:46,624
Yeah, that's great.

510
00:33:46,657 --> 00:33:48,126
Well, thank you so much.

511
00:33:48,159 --> 00:33:51,629
It was great talking about
all your fascinating projects

512
00:33:51,662 --> 00:33:56,034
and really best of luck for everything.

513
00:33:56,067 --> 00:33:57,068
Thank you for having me.

514
00:33:57,068 --> 00:33:59,170
I just love what you're doing.

515
00:33:59,203 --> 00:34:04,675
I'm so glad that you're here
to share, uplift, promote artists.

516
00:34:04,709 --> 00:34:07,712
It's a great opportunity.
Thank you.

517
00:34:07,745 --> 00:34:09,247
Thank you so much.

518
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,583
Talk soon in another project.

519
00:34:12,817 --> 00:34:14,185
Have a great day..

520
00:34:14,685 --> 00:34:19,824
[Closing theme music]