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[Opening theme music]

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Hello, and welcome to this episode
of ArtsAbly in Conversation.

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My name is Diane Kolin.

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This series presents artists, academics,
and project leaders who dedicate their

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time and energy to a better accessibility
for people with disabilities in the arts.

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You can find more of these conversations
on our website, artsably.com,

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which is spelled A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com.

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[Theme music]

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Today, ArtsAbly is in conversation with 
Dr. Chi Yhun Lo, who is a research associate

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in the SMART Lab at Toronto
Metropolitan University in Canada.

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You can find the resources mentioned 
by Chi Yhun Lo during this episode

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on ArtsAbly's website in the blog section.

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Welcome to this new episode
of ArtsAbly in Conversation.

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Welcome, Chi.

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Thank you.
Thank you for having me.

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Thank you for making space in the very
busy schedule that you have right now.

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Okay.

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I read all the research
that you're doing, and it's amazing.

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Thank you.

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I am interested in first exploring before
the researcher where all that came from.

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Who are you?
What is your background?

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Things like that.

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When did the little spark start?

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Yeah, I guess it really starts from childhood 

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for me, where I think maybe in

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a lot of Asian households, the children
are often encouraged to learn music.

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I have two other siblings.

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I learned piano, my brother learned cello,
and my sister learned violin.

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We had a nice little trio.

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And I think that, to me, was
the starting point for music engagement.

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But I suppose the thing
was that I actually 

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don't think I enjoyed music a lot as a child.

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I think it was all very... 
It was a little bit forced, 

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and it was a little bit like rote learning.

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I didn't really have a real appreciation
for it until a little bit later in life,

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when - I think when I was a teenager, 

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and I think I really got into playing guitar,

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really got into the Beatles,
and I was like, Ah, this is music to me.

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I understand it now.

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Music became something
really incredibly fulfilling.

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I think it really formed a massive part
of my social identity.

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Ever since then, I think
I haven't really looked back

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in terms of musical engagement.

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I subsequently became an audio engineer
when I left school,

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and I used to do a lot of...

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I did a lot of live shows,

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and I had two streams of types of shows.

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I would be doing either really big
festival-type shows during

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the summer season in Sydney.

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There would be massive acts.

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It could be, for example, I did some work
with Brian Wilson from the Beach Boys,

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Silver Apples, Nick Cave, Missy
Higgins, some big Australian artists.

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But my main gig as well, I was a touring 
front-of-house audio engineer, 

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and I used to do a lot
of work for a children's band.

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It wasn't the Wiggles, it was the Hooli
Doolies, the poor man's version

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of the Wiggles in Australia.

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And that, to me was a really fascinating
period of my life, I suppose,

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where on one hand, I'm working
with adults, and you can see see

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the importance of engagement with music.

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It's such a critical part,
I think, of humanity.

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But at the same time,
when you see the kids interacting,

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you can quite clearly see it.

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It's like, Wow, these are kids who
have not really been trained in music.

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These are kids who are two,
three, four years old,

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and they're engaging with music.
They're dancing.

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There's something incredibly 
intuitive and almost instinctual 

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when it comes to engagement with music.

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Then subsequently, I think...

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I think being an audio engineer 
or a roadie is a tough life.

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You have to move so much 
audio equipment, and 

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you're the first one there, 
and you're the last one out.

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And I remember driving the truck back to the 
workshop at 4:00 AM, and I was thinking, 

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I can't keep doing this.

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I think I need to find something else.

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So I decided to go to university,
and I completed a bachelor degree

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in speech and hearing science.

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I don't know how it is here in Canada,
but in Australia, you got a really thick

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book with all of the courses
and all of the universities,

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and it's actually incredibly challenging
to find out what it is you want to do.

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But I saw, oh, hearing,
and I thought, oh, that's something

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that I'm deeply passionate about.

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So I jumped into that degree and I was very,

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very fortunate to get involved

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in an undergraduate internship program

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with Harvey Dillon at the National
Acoustic Laboratories in Sydney.

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And Harvey at the time was the head
of the National Acoustic Lab, which is

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the Australian Government Research Wing
that does anything to do with

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hearing and deafness science.

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And I got involved in a project that was 
looking at spatial processing disorder, 

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which is this condition where

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children have a lot of trouble focusing

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their sound by integrating their ears.

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And where this becomes really important
is in the context of listening in

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a classroom, for example, where maybe
you are with your class and they're all

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behind you and your teacher is in front.

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If you have spatial processing
disorder, it it was very difficult

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to maybe separate the sound sources.

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The teacher is here and the classmates
are here, but in your mind,

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everything is just condensed.

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So it was a project looking at that.

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And they developed
a auditory training program.

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And my mind was blown because
I was like, Auditory training?

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This is a thing?

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I had absolutely no conception of this.

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And so I got involved in a PhD project 

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where I really utilized all of my experiences.

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I looked at my experience with music
and audio engineering and all of that,

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and then this idea of auditory training.

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So my PhD started to explore
the benefits of music for 

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deaf and hard-of-hearing children.

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So that's, I guess, the short journey
of how I've come through to that.

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So I'm currently a Senior
Research Associate at the SMARTLab

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at Toronto Metropolitan University.

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I'm also affiliated with Macquarie University, 

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where I'll be taking up a new postdoctoral 
position in the new year investigating

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neurodivergent auditory processing.

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I also have an honorary appointment
with the Australian Institute

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of Health Innovation.

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And finally, the last hat
that I'm going to put on is I do work

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with the Parents of deaf Children.

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So I'm currently the Secretary, but in
the past, I've been the Vice President.

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And the Parents of Deaf Children
are a nonprofit charity organization

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that supports deaf
and hard-of-hearing families.

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It's really about providing families
with as much unbiased and

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really informed information
so that they can articulate and make

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the best decisions for their family.

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I guess that's

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my basic introduction in a nutshell.

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Can you give us a little bit of details
on, for example, I know you did a lot

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of work about cochlear implants.

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You did research, you did processing,
and back in Australia, but also

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what you're doing right now in the lab.

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Yes.

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Can you explain what you're doing exactly?

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Definitely.

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It was a very rich experience 
in Australia because

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I was based in the Australian 
Hearing Hub at Macquarie University, 

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and literally next door, about 50 meters
away from us, was Cochlear headquarters.

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It was an excellent opportunity
to really do some collaboration

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with Cochlear Limited over there.

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I have done some consulting with them 

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on some of their music applications, for example.

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So a lot of my work coming out of my PhD

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and continuing since then was really

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looking at music and deafness.

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And I think when I talk about music
and deafness, I guess the first thing

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that comes to our mind is, okay,
in this contemporary context,

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it's music and hearing aids,
music and cochlear implants.

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And a lot of people are often
like, oh, it must be such a new

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topic, such a new experience.

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But I think what's really fascinating
is, and I'm just going to pull up a slide

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on here because I want to read
this section, because it actually comes

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from the American Annals of the Deaf

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And there was an article from 1848.

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Okay, so this is 250 years ago.

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This is predating, essentially, the fields 
of the professionization of audiology

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and psychology, almost.

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And the article was
"Music Among the Deaf" 

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by W. W. Turner.

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And in this, and I just want to read
this quote here, he writes this here,

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"We have often been asked the question by
visitors: have the deaf any idea of sound?

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We have answered: they have no more idea 
of sound than the blind have of colours, 

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as the idea of sound can be imparted to the mind

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only through the sense of hearing.

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Those who are totally deaf must therefore
be wholly destitute of any such idea."

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These are very, very powerful words.

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And again, this is coming
from the context of 1848.

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"They may know much about sound,
may know how it is propagated.

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Its law of transmission may be familiar
to them, and still, they may and must be

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entirely ignorant of its nature.

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Another question is sometimes asked,
whether the deaf can be taught music.

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This question, like the first,
we have answered in the negative,

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presuming that hearing
is indispensable to its acquisition."

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But this is the important part
right at the end here.

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"A little reflection might have led us
to a different conclusion."

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And fortunately, W. W. Turner

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did spend a lot of time reflecting.

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He was very lucky because he met
a young woman who was profoundly deaf.

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Her name was August Avery, and
she had been trained how to play piano.

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And he was absolutely gobsback.

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He couldn't believe it at first.

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But when he realized to some extent, how
wrong his initial conceptualisation of

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what music and deafness, that interaction
meant, he really turned his idea around.

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He subsequently became a real champion
for deafness and music.

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And so for me, I think historically,
and even to this day,

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there's a real prioritization that

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music engagement is all about hearing.

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And to some extent, this is
quite incompatible to, I think, the

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general idea of what deafness entails.

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But for me, there's a lot
of things to unpack.

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Number one, the construction
of deafness is across a whole range.

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We have a whole range of using

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the medical model of deaf diagnosis,

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from mild to complete deafness.

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There are also assistive listening 
devices that we can use, 

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hearing aids and cochlear implants.

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There's also the use of sign language
or other alternative or augmented

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communication methods as well.

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And I want to bring all of these in
because when I think about music,

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again, it's not just about hearing
and that auditory thing.

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So if I use the example of, let's say,
Let's have a violin player, for example.

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Now we've got our violin player,
and maybe we set them up and they've got

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their score in front of them.

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And so we've got the action of playing.
We've got motor control here.

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So we've got this motor 
system being engaged.

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We've got the use of the visual system
because we're looking at the score.

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We also clearly have the auditory
system, and it's a bit of a feedback loop

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because we're trying to play something
and we want to hear it,

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and we might make adjustments
if we're not playing the right key.

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But now let's say
maybe we remove the sheet music.

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Now we're leveraging
executive functioning and working memory.

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Maybe we ask the violinist,
please compose us some music.

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So again, we're leveraging
all of this cognition and creativity.

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Maybe we turn it into an ensemble,
and now we've got this group

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and social dynamic happening.

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So really, the function of music,
yes, audition is a part of it,

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but it's massive in scope.

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And I think when we think about it
in this multisensory perspective, 

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that's a much better way of looking at how music
can be universally applied irrespective

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of what capacities you might have.

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And then we can also think about
how we can generate benefits

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through this conceptualization of music.

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So my work with cochlear implants

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and hearing aids and deafness in general,

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it really stems from some
of my interactions that I had with

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family members to begin with,
where a lot of them would tell me that,

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number one, in the Australian context,
a lot of deaf and hard-of-hearing

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kids are mainstream-educated.

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I'm not entirely sure how the context
plays out in Canada, but I

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assume that it's probably similar.

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These days, we have newborn hearing
screening, early intervention.

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So a lot of these children are having
very good access to auditory cues,

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and subsequently, quite sadly, to some
extent, a lot of specialized deaf schools

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have been reducing in their numbers.

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00:16:04,229 --> 00:16:06,231
I think there are pros and cons.

236
00:16:06,332 --> 00:16:11,136
But a lot of the families
would often tell me that

237
00:16:11,370 --> 00:16:14,740
when it came to something like music
engagement,

238
00:16:14,773 --> 00:16:20,012
maybe they have a choir, for example,
in the school, or they have a little

239
00:16:20,045 --> 00:16:24,249
ensemble, or maybe they're all just
playing recorder, like a lot of kids.

240
00:16:24,383 --> 00:16:27,753
A lot of parents would often express that

241
00:16:28,253 --> 00:16:32,191
the teachers and the staff really

242
00:16:32,224 --> 00:16:37,296
didn't think that these deaf
and hard-of-hearing kids would be

243
00:16:37,463 --> 00:16:40,599
suitable to join these classes.

244
00:16:40,632 --> 00:16:42,301
There's a lot of exclusion here.

245
00:16:42,334 --> 00:16:46,872
For me, coming from this perspective
of music fundamentally has been

246
00:16:46,872 --> 00:16:51,810
so important for my development,
and I think it has a real place

247
00:16:51,844 --> 00:16:55,147
to play in really everyone's development.

248
00:16:55,180 --> 00:16:57,883
For me, that was just
this plan discriminatory.

249
00:16:57,916 --> 00:17:03,288
And so for me, as a researcher and
as an advocate as well, having these two

250
00:17:03,322 --> 00:17:05,124
hats, I was like, well, what can I do?

251
00:17:05,157 --> 00:17:08,427
And so I was like, well, I really
want to explore what are the benefits

252
00:17:08,427 --> 00:17:13,799
of music participation for
deaf and hard-of-hearing kids.

253
00:17:13,832 --> 00:17:19,805
So my PhD explored a 12-week music program, 

254
00:17:19,838 --> 00:17:22,908
and this was primarily music therapy 

255
00:17:22,908 --> 00:17:25,944
supplemented or complemented by

256
00:17:25,978 --> 00:17:29,815
this app that we had. And on the app,

257
00:17:29,848 --> 00:17:33,652
it was a range of musical activities.

258
00:17:34,019 --> 00:17:37,523
And after this 12-week period,
we were interested in a couple

259
00:17:37,556 --> 00:17:39,191
of different outcomes.

260
00:17:39,224 --> 00:17:45,631
Number one, the biggest challenge
for most deaf and hard-of-hearing

261
00:17:45,664 --> 00:17:51,703
kids comes with listening in noisy
and complex environments.

262
00:17:52,004 --> 00:17:56,308
And that's really where,
I would argue, that's where a lot

263
00:17:56,308 --> 00:17:58,710
of social activity happens.

264
00:17:58,944 --> 00:18:03,749
If you think about any social engagement
we have, whether it's a restaurant,

265
00:18:03,782 --> 00:18:11,323
a pub, a club, even libraries are
quite noisy these days, a lot of them.

266
00:18:11,390 --> 00:18:15,994
These are places where we have
these powerful social interactions.

267
00:18:16,028 --> 00:18:19,465
And when we think about it in
the context of children, it's happening

268
00:18:19,498 --> 00:18:23,669
in the classroom where, again,
they engage in a lot of auditory tasks

269
00:18:23,702 --> 00:18:26,738
and children are inherently noisy.

270
00:18:26,772 --> 00:18:30,442
So really the educational
outcomes, that's a big part.

271
00:18:30,476 --> 00:18:34,046
But another consideration
is what happens in outside

272
00:18:34,046 --> 00:18:35,647
the classroom and in the playground.

273
00:18:35,647 --> 00:18:38,650
Again, a very noisy place,
but that is really where all

274
00:18:38,684 --> 00:18:40,519
of that social facilitation happens.

275
00:18:40,552 --> 00:18:46,725
And for children, once they've reached the
of about five, six onwards, they start

276
00:18:46,725 --> 00:18:51,063
moving away from these dyadic or these
one-on-one conversations, and they start

277
00:18:51,096 --> 00:18:53,398
moving towards group conversations.

278
00:18:53,432 --> 00:18:56,935
So it's really important that we really
maximize the opportunity to communicate

279
00:18:56,969 --> 00:19:02,307
in these complex and noisy environments
where they're going to be learning either

280
00:19:02,341 --> 00:19:06,278
their education or they're going to be
learning how to socialize and

281
00:19:06,311 --> 00:19:09,381
develop a peer support network.

282
00:19:09,414 --> 00:19:15,120
And the really nice finding
from the PhD was after 12 weeks

283
00:19:15,153 --> 00:19:17,389
of music, there were dual benefits.

284
00:19:17,422 --> 00:19:20,359
There was a benefit
for speech and noise perception,

285
00:19:20,392 --> 00:19:23,395
so we found communication benefits.

286
00:19:23,428 --> 00:19:27,866
But on the other side of things,
we also found psychosocial benefits, too.

287
00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:34,273
So things such as what we classify
as these internalized problems,

288
00:19:34,306 --> 00:19:39,244
things like low mood or depression, these
were also boosted by by music engagement.

289
00:19:39,278 --> 00:19:45,817
So for me, it was a really sad hearing
what had been happening historically

290
00:19:45,851 --> 00:19:51,790
where teachers or the school system
might be thinking, these deaf

291
00:19:51,790 --> 00:19:54,960
and hard-of-hearing kids,
they can't participate in music.

292
00:19:54,993 --> 00:19:59,631
When in fact, my findings were, there were
some really specific benefits here

293
00:19:59,665 --> 00:20:03,602
that are specifically beneficial
for deaf and hard-of-hearing kids.

294
00:20:03,635 --> 00:20:07,172
So to deny them this
is absolutely terrible.

295
00:20:07,172 --> 00:20:13,345
So I've been using a lot of that to try
and articulate the accessibility of music

296
00:20:13,378 --> 00:20:15,447
for deaf and hard-of-hearing kids.

297
00:20:16,181 --> 00:20:22,421
Now, there's this broader political
perspective happening in Australia

298
00:20:22,454 --> 00:20:27,459
at the moment, where I'm not sure
if you're familiar with the National

299
00:20:27,492 --> 00:20:33,131
Disability Insurance Agency, the NDIA, or
the National Disability Insurance Scheme.

300
00:20:33,298 --> 00:20:39,171
So this is a massive political undertaking
that happened about 10 years ago.

301
00:20:39,171 --> 00:20:45,744
And the Australian federal government
provides a significant amount of financial

302
00:20:45,777 --> 00:20:51,450
support for a range of disabilities.

303
00:20:52,150 --> 00:20:56,989
Essentially, if you have a disability,
you can sign up for this program.

304
00:20:57,022 --> 00:21:00,993
And depending on what your
functional needs are, they provide you

305
00:21:00,993 --> 00:21:05,797
with full monetary funding support.

306
00:21:05,831 --> 00:21:10,168
For example, if you are a deaf and
hard-of-hearing child, you might require

307
00:21:10,202 --> 00:21:13,972
audiological service, you might require
speech pathology service, you might

308
00:21:14,006 --> 00:21:18,877
require sign language, interpretation
services, so on, the whole range.

309
00:21:18,910 --> 00:21:24,349
But it extends a little bit further than
maybe these typical medical perspectives.

310
00:21:25,050 --> 00:21:28,787
You can also access things
like music therapy or art therapy

311
00:21:28,787 --> 00:21:34,693
or creative therapy
until recently, where they're starting

312
00:21:34,693 --> 00:21:39,097
to tighten up on their funding model.

313
00:21:39,164 --> 00:21:43,468
And sadly, I think the same thing
that happens in education whenever

314
00:21:43,502 --> 00:21:47,339
the money is getting a little bit
thin, the first thing they always remove

315
00:21:47,372 --> 00:21:50,776
is the creative art and music therapy.

316
00:21:50,809 --> 00:21:53,545
This is something that's been happening
recently where they're in discussion

317
00:21:53,578 --> 00:21:59,785
about removing music therapy as one
of their key services that the Australian

318
00:21:59,818 --> 00:22:02,287
government will fund and provide.

319
00:22:02,287 --> 00:22:06,558
Again, to me, this just goes in the face
of everything that I and others

320
00:22:06,591 --> 00:22:11,663
have researched, where we found these
specific benefits, and to remove that

321
00:22:11,697 --> 00:22:13,799
goes against the empirical evidence.

322
00:22:13,832 --> 00:22:16,368
It's something I really want to
push back against because I think

323
00:22:16,401 --> 00:22:19,705
it's going to set us back considerably.

324
00:22:19,738 --> 00:22:23,075
That is one of the sad things
that's currently happening

325
00:22:23,108 --> 00:22:24,576
in the Australian landscape.

326
00:22:26,011 --> 00:22:32,284
With your research, are you able
to try to prove that it's going

327
00:22:32,317 --> 00:22:38,824
the wrong way and maybe try to have
a communication with these services?

328
00:22:38,857 --> 00:22:40,592
Exactly.
That's exactly what we've done.

329
00:22:40,625 --> 00:22:45,597
We have already been partnering with
the Australian Music Therapy Association.

330
00:22:45,630 --> 00:22:51,903
They are the peak body that
represents music therapy in Australia.

331
00:22:51,937 --> 00:22:55,207
They are the ones who are
most effective at the moment.

332
00:22:55,207 --> 00:23:00,145
We have been writing as many
letters of support as we can.

333
00:23:00,178 --> 00:23:02,948
And a lot of other...

334
00:23:02,981 --> 00:23:07,552
Even like the field of audiology, there
are a lot of people in there who have

335
00:23:07,586 --> 00:23:10,555
been able to amplify our voice as well.

336
00:23:10,589 --> 00:23:14,626
So we have already had discussions
with some of the key politicians

337
00:23:14,659 --> 00:23:19,397
So hopefully, come the new year,
they're going to have a bit of a rethink,

338
00:23:19,431 --> 00:23:23,201
because I would love to see music
and creative and art therapy still

339
00:23:23,235 --> 00:23:27,272
maintained within
the National Disability Insurance Scheme.

340
00:23:27,305 --> 00:23:29,441
And this is your...

341
00:23:29,474 --> 00:23:33,311
I wouldn't say the study cases because

342
00:23:33,345 --> 00:23:37,616
it's not human enough, but 

343
00:23:37,616 --> 00:23:42,954
the people you work with, it's mostly children,
or did you work also with adults?

344
00:23:42,988 --> 00:23:45,056
I've also worked with adults.

345
00:23:45,090 --> 00:23:51,163
That was really the start
of my PhD, but I've since expanded.

346
00:23:51,196 --> 00:23:56,234
A lot of the work now actually
continues through my current PhD student.

347
00:23:56,268 --> 00:24:00,539
So I want to have a shout out to my 

348
00:24:00,539 --> 00:24:04,342
absolutely wonderful PhD 
candidate, Felicity Bleckly.

349
00:24:04,376 --> 00:24:09,948
She's a bilateral cochlear implant
user, and her PhD is really

350
00:24:09,948 --> 00:24:16,688
focused on some much more complex
ideas now now around music and deafness.

351
00:24:16,922 --> 00:24:21,293
Her PhD is really focused on,
number one, a specific type of deafness.

352
00:24:21,326 --> 00:24:28,033
Whereas I was looking at things such as
congenital or prelingual deafness

353
00:24:28,066 --> 00:24:33,004
in the context of children,
she's focusing exclusively on postlingual

354
00:24:33,038 --> 00:24:40,278
or almost like age-related hearing losses,
where we do know as a typical function,

355
00:24:40,312 --> 00:24:43,582
our hearing does decline with age.

356
00:24:43,615 --> 00:24:49,421
But her real interest,
I guess it comes from her own personal

357
00:24:49,454 --> 00:24:55,293
experience, where she has always
had a profound connection with music

358
00:24:55,327 --> 00:24:58,730
as a musician, like so many musicians do.

359
00:24:58,730 --> 00:25:03,301
And she subsequently
lost her hearing later in life

360
00:25:03,335 --> 00:25:06,471
and now uses two cochlear implants.

361
00:25:06,505 --> 00:25:12,444
And she initially found the experience
in terms of that auditory perception

362
00:25:12,477 --> 00:25:17,182
and that level of engagement
It just wasn't sufficient.

363
00:25:17,215 --> 00:25:23,622
And it's impossible for us to expect
any device, such as the cochlear implant,

364
00:25:23,655 --> 00:25:27,726
to replace our hearing ability.

365
00:25:27,726 --> 00:25:31,630
It's a completely different way
of interpreting sound.

366
00:25:31,663 --> 00:25:37,869
We have close to, I think,
maybe 20,000 hair cells that do

367
00:25:37,869 --> 00:25:42,040
a lot of the heavy lifting
when it comes to auditory perception.

368
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:46,778
And when we look at the cochlear
implant, we are down to 20,

369
00:25:46,811 --> 00:25:50,081
20 electrodes maybe trying to do
the job of 20,000 hair cells.

370
00:25:50,081 --> 00:25:54,386
So we lose a lot of the acuity.

371
00:25:54,419 --> 00:25:56,888
But that area has been
investigated quite a lot.

372
00:25:56,922 --> 00:26:04,162
We do know that auditorially, a cochlear
implant is nowhere near a human ear.

373
00:26:04,195 --> 00:26:09,834
But the area that Felicity is really
interested in is a lot more nuanced, 

374
00:26:09,834 --> 00:26:14,839
a lot more psychological, where it's like,
okay, well, what is the consequence?

375
00:26:14,873 --> 00:26:20,412
How do people engage with music
when they have a postlingual deafness?

376
00:26:20,412 --> 00:26:23,782
And how does their relationship
with music change?

377
00:26:23,815 --> 00:26:29,721
For example, she often talks about how
there is such a massive grieving process

378
00:26:29,754 --> 00:26:36,428
for her because on one hand, she
hasn't just lost some hearing capacity.

379
00:26:36,461 --> 00:26:41,733
She's also lost that connection and that
engagement with music to some extent.

380
00:26:41,733 --> 00:26:45,036
A lot of our research trying
to understand, well, how can we get

381
00:26:45,070 --> 00:26:46,204
that level of engagement back?

382
00:26:46,237 --> 00:26:52,677
How can we maybe reframe
music to some extent?

383
00:26:52,711 --> 00:26:57,148
It's really interesting as well where
I think some of the methods that Felicity

384
00:26:57,148 --> 00:27:01,052
is using as well
It's not a very traditional

385
00:27:01,152 --> 00:27:05,523
scientific study, where
maybe we have 

386
00:27:05,523 --> 00:27:08,326
a battery of questionnaires
and we bring someone into the lab

387
00:27:08,326 --> 00:27:11,896
and we're like, Can you tell us 
what this sounded like?

388
00:27:11,930 --> 00:27:13,198
And look at the performance.

389
00:27:13,231 --> 00:27:18,503
Very stereotypical standard 
psychological experiment.

390
00:27:18,536 --> 00:27:21,473
In this case,
Felicity is asking for a whole battery

391
00:27:21,473 --> 00:27:27,112
of very interesting things, where we ask
individuals to send us

392
00:27:27,145 --> 00:27:31,249
little snippets of music
that might have some very personal

393
00:27:31,249 --> 00:27:35,620
significance, some meaning,
or we ask them to send in some imagery

394
00:27:35,653 --> 00:27:37,389
that also has meaning.

395
00:27:37,489 --> 00:27:39,791
And we start doing analysis of this

396
00:27:39,824 --> 00:27:46,965
or a little biographical written two-page

397
00:27:46,998 --> 00:27:49,968
piece about their experience as well.

398
00:27:50,001 --> 00:27:54,673
We're triangulating all of this data
to have a more holistic perspective

399
00:27:54,673 --> 00:27:56,541
of what music might mean.

400
00:27:57,308 --> 00:28:02,013
I think what's really interesting is how
for a lot of these individuals,

401
00:28:03,148 --> 00:28:09,721
there is this initial grieving period,
where there's a massive period of loss,

402
00:28:09,754 --> 00:28:14,826
where for a lot of them,
and I think I'd be the same as well,

403
00:28:14,893 --> 00:28:17,195
music has always been there for me.

404
00:28:17,228 --> 00:28:19,964
It doesn't matter in what emotional state.

405
00:28:19,998 --> 00:28:24,369
I mean, if I'm happy, if I'm sad,
if I'm high, if I'm low, if I need

406
00:28:24,402 --> 00:28:28,073
a boost, or if I need something
to calm me down, music is always there.

407
00:28:28,106 --> 00:28:32,043
But you imagine when you lose that sense
that connects you primarily,

408
00:28:32,043 --> 00:28:38,483
or the sense that you have always
associated through hearing with music,

409
00:28:38,516 --> 00:28:45,824
and you lose that, and you are also
grappling with your new sense of sound.

410
00:28:45,857 --> 00:28:52,530
And now your one source of comfort music
is also diminished, it's also gone.

411
00:28:52,564 --> 00:28:55,900
So it's almost like a double problem.

412
00:28:55,934 --> 00:28:58,670
So that's what we are currently exploring.

413
00:28:58,703 --> 00:29:02,507
Because a lot of the hearing aid
manufacturers, a lot of the

414
00:29:02,507 --> 00:29:07,245
cochlear implant manufacturers, a lot
of the engineers, the focus is primarily

415
00:29:07,278 --> 00:29:10,181
on speech perception and communication.

416
00:29:10,215 --> 00:29:12,817
And for us, it's all like,
okay, that's all well and good.

417
00:29:12,851 --> 00:29:16,588
But have you also also just
considered music is going to be really

418
00:29:16,588 --> 00:29:22,160
important, not just for musicians,
but really a lot of people.

419
00:29:22,193 --> 00:29:25,563
So we really want to look at ways
in which we can prove the acuity

420
00:29:25,597 --> 00:29:27,999
of these devices on one hand.

421
00:29:28,032 --> 00:29:32,003
But we also just want to understand,
Okay, what's really happening

422
00:29:32,036 --> 00:29:36,508
and how can we maybe develop
programs in the future that might be able

423
00:29:36,541 --> 00:29:41,412
to articulate this a little better,
or maybe even just communicate this

424
00:29:41,412 --> 00:29:48,453
with audiologists so that they to be
fundamentally aware of what the needs are.

425
00:29:48,453 --> 00:29:52,924
In France, there is
a specific brand called Audika.

426
00:29:52,957 --> 00:29:58,530
This brand developed a few 
years ago a special program. 

427
00:29:58,530 --> 00:30:06,437
I think their first study cases were with 
Radio France, so the French National Radio.

428
00:30:06,471 --> 00:30:08,640
Then they extended it to anybody.

429
00:30:08,673 --> 00:30:13,044
It's based on hearing aids

430
00:30:13,077 --> 00:30:16,648
or hearing improvements for musicians.

431
00:30:16,648 --> 00:30:23,321
They created a full lab
with a lot of ways to measure.

432
00:30:23,354 --> 00:30:26,791
You have to come with your instrument
or to sing if you're a singer.

433
00:30:26,825 --> 00:30:32,830
Then they test and they
follow the progression.

434
00:30:32,864 --> 00:30:39,003
They have developed a 
special kind of earring aids

435
00:30:39,037 --> 00:30:41,272
where it's way more improved

436
00:30:41,272 --> 00:30:42,707
than any other earring aids.

437
00:30:42,707 --> 00:30:47,278
You have way more settings,
you have way more channels, 

438
00:30:47,278 --> 00:30:53,785
and you're rechecked very frequently, 
and I followed their study and it's very interesting.

439
00:30:53,818 --> 00:30:58,790
I wonder if you had that experience
to test with instruments

440
00:30:58,823 --> 00:31:01,192
directly with the participants?

441
00:31:01,226 --> 00:31:01,993
Yes.

442
00:31:01,993 --> 00:31:06,231
Well, in Felicity's study, that's not
the focus, but that was the focus

443
00:31:06,231 --> 00:31:10,368
of some of my work previously
and some of my other work as well.

444
00:31:10,535 --> 00:31:15,173
We are very interested in, I guess,
looking at different types

445
00:31:15,173 --> 00:31:18,076
of perceptual judgments.

446
00:31:18,109 --> 00:31:23,982
One of the tasks that we do look at
in the pediatric study was 

447
00:31:23,982 --> 00:31:26,884
how they can identify different instruments.

448
00:31:27,852 --> 00:31:32,290
It's also really interesting,
I suppose, because a lot of parents

449
00:31:32,290 --> 00:31:35,193
often ask me at the end of the study, Oh, okay.

450
00:31:35,226 --> 00:31:40,665
My child really enjoyed participating
in music, and we want to continue.

451
00:31:40,698 --> 00:31:43,167
What instrument can you recommend?

452
00:31:43,167 --> 00:31:46,271
That's probably the most common
question I've always been asked,

453
00:31:46,271 --> 00:31:48,239
what instrument can I recommend?

454
00:31:48,273 --> 00:31:50,475
And for me, there's a couple
of ways to answer this.

455
00:31:50,508 --> 00:31:56,581
So perceptually, pitch is going
to be more challenging than rhythm.

456
00:31:56,614 --> 00:32:00,285
So you could argue that
going for percussive instruments

457
00:32:00,285 --> 00:32:04,989
is an easier choice if 
maybe you're looking at 

458
00:32:04,989 --> 00:32:07,525
getting them into music's beginning.

459
00:32:07,525 --> 00:32:11,162
But I don't necessarily think that's
the best approach because 

460
00:32:11,162 --> 00:32:15,433
there are other different types of instruments
where even though their pitch perception

461
00:32:15,433 --> 00:32:19,370
might not be as good as a typical hearing
child, for me, that just doesn't matter.

462
00:32:19,370 --> 00:32:25,209
I think it's the same concept in, I am not
going to have as good pitch perception

463
00:32:25,243 --> 00:32:26,878
as a professional musician.

464
00:32:26,911 --> 00:32:32,183
It doesn't mean that I'm not
going to just try playing piano anyway.

465
00:32:32,216 --> 00:32:36,888
Piano also has the advantage where you
can see all of the keys distinctly, and

466
00:32:36,921 --> 00:32:41,693
they're labeled and organized in a very
sensible way from low to high in pitch.

467
00:32:42,026 --> 00:32:46,030
It's similar in a guitar or a stringed
instrument, but there's a little bit more

468
00:32:46,030 --> 00:32:49,233
complexity as well because you have
those multiple strings happening.

469
00:32:49,267 --> 00:32:52,270
But my answer for parents
was always really quite simple.

470
00:32:52,303 --> 00:32:57,208
I was like, there is no such thing
as a best instrument for any given child.

471
00:32:57,241 --> 00:33:01,012
It's just, what's the best instrument
for your child is provide

472
00:33:01,045 --> 00:33:03,481
a whole suite, a whole array.

473
00:33:03,514 --> 00:33:07,552
Don't go and buy the the instrument
outright, just hire it or hopefully

474
00:33:07,552 --> 00:33:09,520
your school has a range.

475
00:33:09,554 --> 00:33:12,490
See what they engage with
because whatever they're going

476
00:33:12,523 --> 00:33:17,395
to engage with and continue with,
that's the best instrument for them.

477
00:33:17,428 --> 00:33:22,967
For me, irrespective of whatever we
have in our research findings, that to me

478
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,738
is the perspective I will always take.

479
00:33:26,771 --> 00:33:27,572
Yeah.

480
00:33:27,572 --> 00:33:32,043
Did you hear of this study in Melbourne,
by the way, speaking of Australia,

481
00:33:32,076 --> 00:33:37,548
with the Melbourne University,
and they're paired with the Conservatory,

482
00:33:37,582 --> 00:33:43,388
and they're also paired with
someone who's an organologist.

483
00:33:43,421 --> 00:33:49,861
So someone who study the instruments
themselves, and they have improved,

484
00:33:49,894 --> 00:33:56,100
or at least they constantly
improve the use of instruments

485
00:33:56,134 --> 00:33:59,470
for musicians with disabilities.

486
00:33:59,504 --> 00:34:02,974
I don't know if they did
a study about hearing.

487
00:34:03,007 --> 00:34:04,609
That's a question I have.

488
00:34:04,642 --> 00:34:07,578
Yeah, I'm not so familiar with that.

489
00:34:07,612 --> 00:34:09,680
Historically, there was
some really interesting stuff

490
00:34:09,714 --> 00:34:11,783
coming out of Melbourne.

491
00:34:11,883 --> 00:34:15,386
They were doing, for example, they got a...

492
00:34:15,386 --> 00:34:18,222
They wanted to develop some concerts

493
00:34:18,222 --> 00:34:21,225
for cochlear implant users, for example.

494
00:34:21,259 --> 00:34:26,230
They did a lot of work with audiologists
and individuals with lived experience,

495
00:34:26,264 --> 00:34:30,101
and then pairing them with composers,

496
00:34:30,134 --> 00:34:33,771
and basically looking at how there is

497
00:34:33,805 --> 00:34:37,208
going to be a difference in hearing.

498
00:34:37,208 --> 00:34:42,580
So you want to tailor the sound
for someone with a cochlear implant.

499
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,751
And a lot of work has been done on that
actually, where cognitive implant users

500
00:34:46,784 --> 00:34:49,487
have a preference for the vocal track.

501
00:34:49,487 --> 00:34:53,658
They want the vocal track to be maybe
three decibels louder, just a little bit

502
00:34:53,691 --> 00:34:58,329
louder than a mainstream mix, just to
be able to hear the vocals and the lyrics

503
00:34:58,362 --> 00:35:00,832
and the melody just a little bit more.

504
00:35:00,865 --> 00:35:04,769
So these are some interesting things
that are being done.

505
00:35:04,769 --> 00:35:11,075
There's also a deaf musician advocate

506
00:35:11,108 --> 00:35:14,645
in Australia called Asphyxia.

507
00:35:14,645 --> 00:35:22,286
They developed a program called Amplio,
where it's looking at how

508
00:35:22,286 --> 00:35:27,024
some of the song composition and the song mix

509
00:35:27,058 --> 00:35:32,330
can be adjusted for a deaf
and hard-of-hearing population.

510
00:35:32,330 --> 00:35:36,000
I think there's a lot of interesting work
being done in this space.

511
00:35:36,167 --> 00:35:39,103
I have a question for you as a musician.

512
00:35:39,137 --> 00:35:46,878
All this research, how did it affect
your perception of music as a musician?

513
00:35:46,911 --> 00:35:51,916
I think it made me realize
the multisensory nature, number one.

514
00:35:51,949 --> 00:35:57,588
I think before becoming a researcher,
I think I also had that bias where it's like, 

515
00:35:57,588 --> 00:36:01,559
Oh, it's It's all about my ear,
it's all about the hearing.

516
00:36:01,559 --> 00:36:05,863
But when I really took a lot
of time to reflect on it, it's like, no,

517
00:36:05,897 --> 00:36:07,331
there's so much more to it.

518
00:36:07,331 --> 00:36:12,570
I think that perspective, it just
broadens the possibility 

519
00:36:12,570 --> 00:36:16,040
of what music can be and 
what music can mean.

520
00:36:16,073 --> 00:36:21,112
So to me, it's just expanded my scope
of, I guess, musical engagement

521
00:36:21,112 --> 00:36:22,980
and musical practice.

522
00:36:23,014 --> 00:36:25,917
On the other hand, because I'm so 
busy as a researcher now, 

523
00:36:25,917 --> 00:36:28,853
I've lost my calluses on my fingers.

524
00:36:28,886 --> 00:36:32,290
I actually don't have enough time to play.

525
00:36:32,290 --> 00:36:37,628
I do a lot more research
and a lot more listening to music

526
00:36:37,628 --> 00:36:40,565
than I do getting to play music.

527
00:36:40,598 --> 00:36:45,303
But to be fair, I guess,
I think there are - I would probably

528
00:36:45,336 --> 00:36:48,472
prefer listening to other musicians
than listen to myself anyway.

529
00:36:48,506 --> 00:36:50,741
I'm comfortable with that.

530
00:36:50,775 --> 00:36:56,480
I think we all have our specialties,
and I'm a better researcher

531
00:36:56,514 --> 00:37:00,217
than I am a musician.

532
00:37:00,384 --> 00:37:07,291
What does it mean for you to work in
that research environment where

533
00:37:07,325 --> 00:37:12,630
you promote disability culture and
you work about accessibility in the arts?

534
00:37:12,663 --> 00:37:14,765
What does it mean for you?

535
00:37:14,765 --> 00:37:17,768
For me, it's something that, 

536
00:37:17,768 --> 00:37:20,104
number one, I'm deeply passionate about.

537
00:37:20,137 --> 00:37:23,708
That's my selfish perspective.
I'm doing this because I love it.

538
00:37:23,708 --> 00:37:24,942
You know...

539
00:37:24,942 --> 00:37:30,181
But I also want my passion

540
00:37:30,214 --> 00:37:33,317
and my research interest to be reflected

541
00:37:33,351 --> 00:37:35,353
and to have application.

542
00:37:35,386 --> 00:37:37,255
That, to me is also
fundamentally important.

543
00:37:37,288 --> 00:37:40,224
I'm not a theoretical researcher.

544
00:37:40,257 --> 00:37:44,328
What I do has to be empirically
grounded, and it has to have

545
00:37:44,328 --> 00:37:47,231
fundamentally benefit for the community.

546
00:37:47,264 --> 00:37:50,735
So that's why it's really important that
I do a lot of engagement work 

547
00:37:50,735 --> 00:37:53,471
with, for example, the parents of deaf children.

548
00:37:53,504 --> 00:37:59,176
I like to give a lot of talks
at conferences or workshops

549
00:37:59,210 --> 00:38:03,280
where it is really important
that I present this work.

550
00:38:03,314 --> 00:38:08,319
I want to see music and deafness
taken really seriously

551
00:38:08,352 --> 00:38:09,920
and for it to be accessible.

552
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,024
And for it to be accessible
throughout the world 

553
00:38:13,024 --> 00:38:19,330
and from the start through the finish, 
from kids all the way to older adults.

554
00:38:19,330 --> 00:38:21,966
I think there are benefits throughout all.

555
00:38:21,999 --> 00:38:25,803
And a lot of my research
really spans that as well.

556
00:38:25,836 --> 00:38:29,240
So I've spoken a little bit about
the pediatric work, a little bit of work

557
00:38:29,273 --> 00:38:32,743
from my PhD candidate, and also some of

558
00:38:32,777 --> 00:38:35,813
the work that I'm doing going forward

559
00:38:35,813 --> 00:38:41,252
is really centred around now choir singing.

560
00:38:41,285 --> 00:38:43,988
So some of my most recent work,

561
00:38:44,021 --> 00:38:48,659
we are looking at projects with SingWell.

562
00:38:48,693 --> 00:38:53,864
The SingWell Project is housed
at Toronto Metropolitan University

563
00:38:53,898 --> 00:38:59,270
and is co-directed by Professor 
Frank Russo and Dr. Arla Good.

564
00:38:59,270 --> 00:39:03,641
And it's really about generating 
and examining the benefits

565
00:39:03,674 --> 00:39:10,047
of group singing for populations
which have some communication disorder.

566
00:39:10,047 --> 00:39:16,587
This can be anything
from aphasia, Alzheimer's,

567
00:39:16,587 --> 00:39:19,256
and in my case, hearing loss.

568
00:39:19,623 --> 00:39:26,764
So I'm leading a multi-site study
where we are going to examine 12 weeks

569
00:39:26,797 --> 00:39:30,401
of choir singing in older adults.

570
00:39:30,401 --> 00:39:35,539
And specifically, these now
are older adults with what we

571
00:39:35,573 --> 00:39:38,709
classify as unaddressed hearing loss.

572
00:39:38,743 --> 00:39:42,446
So these are older adults
who typically through aging,

573
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,549
their hearing drops off a little bit.

574
00:39:45,583 --> 00:39:50,488
And the sensible thing to do for most
of these individuals would be

575
00:39:50,488 --> 00:39:54,391
see an audiologist and consider
whether or not they're going

576
00:39:54,391 --> 00:39:58,696
to get benefit from a hearing aid,
because in most cases they will.

577
00:39:59,063 --> 00:40:04,869
But there is a lot of stigma
attached to assistive listening devices.

578
00:40:04,902 --> 00:40:11,709
And in about 70 % of the cases where they
would likely benefit from a hearing aid,

579
00:40:12,009 --> 00:40:16,046
these adults actually just don't a
hearing aid, or they might have a hearing

580
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,149
aid and it's just in the bedside table.

581
00:40:18,149 --> 00:40:20,251
Very, very, very common.

582
00:40:20,251 --> 00:40:24,388
And the stigma is incredibly powerful.

583
00:40:25,222 --> 00:40:28,392
But it's really interesting
because when I've spoken to

584
00:40:28,392 --> 00:40:31,595
some of my audiologist colleagues.

585
00:40:31,629 --> 00:40:37,501
This is the anecdote I always like to use,
where this older gentleman turns up.

586
00:40:37,535 --> 00:40:42,306
He's got spectacles, he's got white hair,
he's got a walking stick,

587
00:40:42,339 --> 00:40:46,377
he's got a bit of a hunch,
and comes into the audiologist

588
00:40:46,410 --> 00:40:52,316
appointment, and subsequently told
that he would benefit from a hearing aid.

589
00:40:52,349 --> 00:40:57,855
But he refuses because he
doesn't want to look old.

590
00:40:57,855 --> 00:41:00,357
You know...
(Laughs.)

591
00:41:00,357 --> 00:41:04,028
And that is often a rationale that's used.

592
00:41:04,028 --> 00:41:06,430
And it's like, okay, that's
an interesting perspective,

593
00:41:06,430 --> 00:41:08,866
given everything else that we can see.

594
00:41:08,899 --> 00:41:12,570
But that's how strong this stigma is.

595
00:41:12,603 --> 00:41:19,844
It is often attached with a lot
of these ageist, ableist perspectives.

596
00:41:19,877 --> 00:41:26,483
So really for us, actually, one
of the most interesting things is, well,

597
00:41:26,517 --> 00:41:31,922
on one hand, I've already found that
music training seems to benefit children

598
00:41:31,922 --> 00:41:33,858
who are deaf and hard of hearing.

599
00:41:33,891 --> 00:41:37,661
Now we want to know, can it
apply to an older population?

600
00:41:37,695 --> 00:41:43,267
And we are trying to target now,
specifically the group that is,

601
00:41:43,267 --> 00:41:47,371
I suppose, the largest cohort of people
who are deaf and hard of hearing

602
00:41:47,371 --> 00:41:51,442
are those who actually just don't
do anything about their hearing loss.

603
00:41:51,442 --> 00:41:59,049
That's our current research direction.

604
00:41:59,149 --> 00:42:00,751
Very interesting.

605
00:42:00,784 --> 00:42:04,021
For me, it's really fascinating how

606
00:42:04,021 --> 00:42:07,525
a community of musicians or singers or

607
00:42:07,525 --> 00:42:10,594
the community leads to something different.

608
00:42:10,628 --> 00:42:17,401
If you take the person, him or herself,
and you talk about the benefits

609
00:42:17,434 --> 00:42:22,373
of having a hearing aid or maybe
how it will impact the musicianship

610
00:42:22,406 --> 00:42:28,312
or how it will impact the way they will
feel in the society and hear better.

611
00:42:28,345 --> 00:42:33,550
It's like, Yeah,
but I will feel old if I wear it.

612
00:42:33,584 --> 00:42:38,389
Then if you bring all these people
together in a choir and you do

613
00:42:38,389 --> 00:42:42,793
an experiment and they all wear hearing
aids, and it doesn't matter anymore

614
00:42:42,793 --> 00:42:47,031
because they see that, Okay, 
if this guy is doing it, maybe 

615
00:42:47,031 --> 00:42:49,533
he looks older than me, 
I'm going to do it too.

616
00:42:49,533 --> 00:42:50,868
Yes.

617
00:42:50,868 --> 00:42:53,337
Actually I think...

618
00:42:53,337 --> 00:42:55,205
The examination of stigma is

619
00:42:55,205 --> 00:42:59,109
another facet of the research that I do.

620
00:42:59,109 --> 00:43:01,645
And one of the things
that I set up in Australia

621
00:43:01,645 --> 00:43:06,483
was a science workshop specifically
for deaf and hard-of-hearing children.

622
00:43:06,517 --> 00:43:12,089
It was exactly this problem where because
these children are mainstream-educating,

623
00:43:12,089 --> 00:43:15,292
they are often the only deaf
and hard-of-hearing child, maybe

624
00:43:15,292 --> 00:43:20,297
in their class, maybe in their whole
cohort, maybe in the whole school.

625
00:43:20,331 --> 00:43:22,533
And when they come to 
these workshops, which are 

626
00:43:22,533 --> 00:43:25,269
designed specifically for deaf 
and hard-of-hearing kids, 

627
00:43:25,269 --> 00:43:27,404
a lot of the children have often come up to me,

628
00:43:27,404 --> 00:43:30,207
and they've just looked at me,
it's like, This is just so cool.

629
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:34,311
I've just actually never met
another deaf kid.

630
00:43:34,345 --> 00:43:35,746
And they often write.

631
00:43:35,746 --> 00:43:39,683
They write to us and they'll be like,
Oh, it's so cool that everyone here

632
00:43:39,683 --> 00:43:40,951
just gets it about deafness.

633
00:43:40,985 --> 00:43:44,688
So I don't have to just constantly
explain to my teacher.

634
00:43:44,688 --> 00:43:48,726
Like, okay, these are my hearing aids, 

635
00:43:48,726 --> 00:43:52,229
and I'm going to connect my
radio frequency device.

636
00:43:52,262 --> 00:43:57,568
I'm going to put something on a little 
lanyard on you so that I can hear you.

637
00:43:57,568 --> 00:44:01,205
Please make sure that you switch it off 
when you go to the washroom. (Laughs.)

638
00:44:01,205 --> 00:44:04,375
All of these little things that 

639
00:44:04,375 --> 00:44:08,078
it can easily slip your mind.

640
00:44:08,112 --> 00:44:10,381
But we provide...

641
00:44:10,381 --> 00:44:12,316
We have assistive listening devices.

642
00:44:12,349 --> 00:44:15,085
We have deaf awareness training
for all of our educators.

643
00:44:15,085 --> 00:44:16,286
Everything is captioned.

644
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:18,522
Everything is provided also in...

645
00:44:18,555 --> 00:44:23,394
We have written handouts
for all of the experiments.

646
00:44:23,427 --> 00:44:28,799
And then we also
remove any science experiment

647
00:44:28,832 --> 00:44:34,405
that's going to be maybe very loud
or very reliant on hearing, for example.

648
00:44:34,438 --> 00:44:39,610
There are lots of ways in which we can
engage, as you say, with the community,

649
00:44:39,610 --> 00:44:45,482
and fundamentally, bringing these kids
together, normalizing their deafness and

650
00:44:45,516 --> 00:44:49,787
for them to meet a peer support group.

651
00:44:49,820 --> 00:44:53,357
When will that happen,
this SingWell 12 weeks?

652
00:44:53,390 --> 00:44:57,127
The SingWell will be kicking off 
at the end of winter,

653
00:44:57,127 --> 00:45:00,364
so the start of spring next year.

654
00:45:00,397 --> 00:45:02,366
It's a big multi-site project.

655
00:45:02,399 --> 00:45:05,936
We have seven sites around the world.

656
00:45:05,969 --> 00:45:07,871
We have partners in Canada,

657
00:45:07,905 --> 00:45:13,944
in the USA, in Germany, in the UK,

658
00:45:13,977 --> 00:45:18,048
in Australia and in the Netherlands.

659
00:45:18,048 --> 00:45:25,122
We got lots of partners, and hopefully - 
we have our protocol paper published,

660
00:45:25,155 --> 00:45:31,328
and we will hopefully have the full paper 
published in two years time, something like that.

661
00:45:32,763 --> 00:45:35,265
It's fascinating.

662
00:45:35,299 --> 00:45:40,838
It's a good segue to the last
question, which is about people

663
00:45:40,871 --> 00:45:47,711
who might have motivated you, helped you,
who were important in your career.

664
00:45:47,744 --> 00:45:52,950
In all this research you've done, you've
probably met a lot of different people

665
00:45:52,950 --> 00:45:59,890
who maybe, I don't like the term inspired
you, but sometimes it's the case.

666
00:45:59,890 --> 00:46:05,996
I was thinking, if you had one
or two people or maybe more to name,

667
00:46:06,029 --> 00:46:08,031
who would it be and why?

668
00:46:08,065 --> 00:46:14,037
I have to give a shout out, firstly, to
my PhD supervisors from five years ago.

669
00:46:14,071 --> 00:46:20,544
Catherine McMahon, a real 
expert in the audiology world.

670
00:46:20,577 --> 00:46:27,184
Valerie Looi, who is an expert also
in cochlear implant listening

671
00:46:27,217 --> 00:46:28,452
and also in music.

672
00:46:28,452 --> 00:46:35,325
She herself is a music therapist,
and she's done a lot of work looking at

673
00:46:35,325 --> 00:46:37,594
this idea of music appreciation.

674
00:46:37,628 --> 00:46:40,731
And I just wanted to touch on it
a little bit because we've been talking

675
00:46:40,764 --> 00:46:43,867
about hearing capacities
and the ability to listen.

676
00:46:43,901 --> 00:46:48,505
But the idea of music appreciation
is that it doesn't necessarily matter

677
00:46:48,505 --> 00:46:51,642
how accurate you are at perceiving music.

678
00:46:51,675 --> 00:46:55,412
You can still enjoy and appreciate music
irrespective of that.

679
00:46:55,412 --> 00:46:57,414
And I think that's going to be very true.

680
00:46:57,447 --> 00:47:01,018
I think musicians, for example, they
might listen to an orchestra and they can

681
00:47:01,051 --> 00:47:06,089
pick out all these maybe individual notes
coming out of a single player.

682
00:47:06,089 --> 00:47:09,026
But for other people, they're just
going to listen to it maybe

683
00:47:09,026 --> 00:47:10,761
a little bit more holistically.

684
00:47:10,794 --> 00:47:14,064
And it doesn't really matter
that you can tell what scale

685
00:47:14,097 --> 00:47:17,034
they're playing or what notes
they're playing, you can still enjoy it.

686
00:47:17,067 --> 00:47:18,468
You can still appreciate it.

687
00:47:18,502 --> 00:47:21,538
And I think that's a very useful model
for us to use, particularly

688
00:47:21,572 --> 00:47:26,310
when it comes to deaf and hard
of hearing musical appreciation.

689
00:47:26,343 --> 00:47:32,216
A shout out also to Bill Thompson,
an emiratist professor who is one

690
00:47:32,249 --> 00:47:35,586
of the leaders in music psychology.

691
00:47:35,619 --> 00:47:40,858
They were all really instrumental
in helping shape who I am now.

692
00:47:41,225 --> 00:47:44,394
A little bit more recently,

693
00:47:44,428 --> 00:47:49,166
I've been inspired by also my PhD candidate, 

694
00:47:49,166 --> 00:47:52,302
Felicity Bleckly, who's doing 
some really amazing work.

695
00:47:52,336 --> 00:47:58,108
And I think it really highlights
the power of having that lived experience

696
00:47:58,108 --> 00:48:01,445
when it comes to leading these projects.

697
00:48:01,478 --> 00:48:06,483
There are certain ways of
how she's tackling the project.

698
00:48:06,483 --> 00:48:08,252
This is very different
to how I would have done it.

699
00:48:08,252 --> 00:48:13,690
And I think it's really important, number
one, that I celebrate this perspective

700
00:48:13,690 --> 00:48:18,562
And I'm so appreciative that I get
to work and supervise Felicity as well.

701
00:48:18,595 --> 00:48:21,932
I'm really excited to see her
become a doctor in the next few years

702
00:48:21,965 --> 00:48:26,003
and excited to see all of these 
outputs and how it can have 

703
00:48:26,003 --> 00:48:28,739
some impact in the next few years, too.

704
00:48:29,539 --> 00:48:34,845
In Toronto, I was really fortunate 
enough to meet Rory McLeod,

705
00:48:34,878 --> 00:48:40,951
who is, I believe, the founder
maybe, or CEO of Xenia Concerts.

706
00:48:40,984 --> 00:48:46,089
And it was really my first experience
being able to appreciate or even just

707
00:48:46,089 --> 00:48:53,196
experience, to begin with, these casual,
relaxed listening experiences.

708
00:48:53,230 --> 00:48:56,300
It was just so different to me
because I've always been someone

709
00:48:56,333 --> 00:49:01,438
who's always gone to gigs, whether it's
a big orchestra piece in a fancy opera

710
00:49:01,471 --> 00:49:06,510
to maybe me just playing some rock
and roll music in a dingy pub.

711
00:49:06,543 --> 00:49:07,978
I've always appreciated all of these.

712
00:49:08,011 --> 00:49:12,149
But I think what's really 
interesting is that culturally, 

713
00:49:12,149 --> 00:49:15,652
we do have certain expectations of 
what a concert and what a gig is.

714
00:49:15,652 --> 00:49:17,821
And culturally, these things are not...

715
00:49:17,854 --> 00:49:22,726
They're transmitted very loosely,
and we just somehow know how 

716
00:49:22,726 --> 00:49:26,430
an opera is going to operate, for example.

717
00:49:26,463 --> 00:49:29,499
But I think this very formalization,

718
00:49:29,499 --> 00:49:34,004
this formal approach or these 
expectations are also

719
00:49:34,037 --> 00:49:40,277
just not in line with when we think
about disability and neurodivergent.

720
00:49:40,310 --> 00:49:43,046
It's just fundamentally
not very compatible.

721
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:49,786
They are so structured
for a normative person.

722
00:49:49,820 --> 00:49:54,992
For me, music is just not
normative to begin with.

723
00:49:55,025 --> 00:50:01,932
Why are we trying to 
scaffold it into this theme?

724
00:50:01,965 --> 00:50:08,739
Actually, I want to just
have a brief segue into models.

725
00:50:08,772 --> 00:50:11,375
I think we're all probably
very familiar with the medical model,

726
00:50:11,408 --> 00:50:13,810
which is very deficit-heavy.

727
00:50:13,810 --> 00:50:18,782
And then I think a lot more research
is moving towards the biopsychosocial

728
00:50:18,815 --> 00:50:23,920
model, where we have a much more holistic
perspective of these things, where

729
00:50:23,954 --> 00:50:26,723
there is nothing really inherently wrong
with any individual.

730
00:50:26,723 --> 00:50:29,526
It's really based on what's happening
in maybe the broader community

731
00:50:29,559 --> 00:50:31,461
and how we structure these things.

732
00:50:31,928 --> 00:50:36,533
Another model that one of the research
groups that I've been working with

733
00:50:36,733 --> 00:50:42,339
complements this, and we call it
the possibility model, or rather we're

734
00:50:42,372 --> 00:50:45,242
borrowing this idea of possibility model.

735
00:50:45,275 --> 00:50:50,347
And we're borrowing it
from feminist theory and from

736
00:50:50,380 --> 00:50:52,449
queer gender theory as well.

737
00:50:52,449 --> 00:50:56,720
And I just wanted to bring this in
because I think it's a nice little segue.

738
00:50:56,753 --> 00:51:00,824
And it really comes out from... 
Strangely enough, it was just like

739
00:51:00,857 --> 00:51:03,560
a Hollywood interview 

740
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:07,931
with a transgender actor, 
Laverne Cox, who is one of

741
00:51:07,964 --> 00:51:11,768
the stars from Orange is the New Black.

742
00:51:11,768 --> 00:51:17,007
And she was asked in an interview,
She's like, Oh, how do you

743
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:21,745
feel about being this transgender actor
role model now that you've made it big?

744
00:51:21,778 --> 00:51:24,181
And this was her response here.

745
00:51:24,981 --> 00:51:30,086
"I would never be so arrogant to think that
someone should model their life after me.

746
00:51:30,086 --> 00:51:35,125
But the idea of possibility, the idea that I get 
to live my dreams out in public, 

747
00:51:35,125 --> 00:51:38,628
hopefully will show to other folks that it's possible.

748
00:51:38,662 --> 00:51:43,066
So I prefer the term possibility model
to role model."

749
00:51:43,099 --> 00:51:47,571
And I've really taken this on in a lot
of the research that I do now.

750
00:51:47,604 --> 00:51:52,042
And one of the other research projects
that I'm a part of

751
00:51:52,609 --> 00:51:58,882
is broadly called deafnesses,
so a pluralization of deafness.

752
00:51:58,915 --> 00:52:03,653
And here, again, we're trying
to have a more spectral

753
00:52:03,653 --> 00:52:06,456
spectrum approach to deafness.

754
00:52:06,656 --> 00:52:11,928
And by that, we actually think this has
significant implications when

755
00:52:11,928 --> 00:52:14,731
it comes to the treatment of deafness.

756
00:52:14,731 --> 00:52:21,571
So the standard model of care, for
example, if you are identified as having

757
00:52:21,605 --> 00:52:26,009
a prelingal deafness from newborn hearing
screening, you're then either recommended

758
00:52:26,009 --> 00:52:30,680
hearing aids or cochlear implants
in the first instance to your family.

759
00:52:30,714 --> 00:52:34,584
Our question is, why is that?

760
00:52:34,618 --> 00:52:38,722
Why has that become the stereotypical
role model approach?

761
00:52:38,755 --> 00:52:44,861
That is the first thing that the clinician
or even the general public mind goes to.

762
00:52:44,895 --> 00:52:50,133
But to the detriment to things such
as augmented communication

763
00:52:50,133 --> 00:52:52,068
or things like sign language.

764
00:52:52,102 --> 00:52:54,671
And we know this, we have
the stats to back this up.

765
00:52:54,671 --> 00:53:01,545
Like Australian sign language,
Auslan is is decreasing,

766
00:53:02,212 --> 00:53:05,282
and cochlear implantation is increasing.

767
00:53:05,315 --> 00:53:07,551
So there's a clear relationship here.

768
00:53:07,584 --> 00:53:13,790
But we feel like it's a bit uncomfortable
if that becomes your stereotypical

769
00:53:13,790 --> 00:53:17,360
role model approach, where it's like,
okay, if you have a deafness,

770
00:53:17,394 --> 00:53:19,663
you become a cochlear implant user.

771
00:53:19,696 --> 00:53:23,333
For us, it's a little bit more sensible.
Why don't we consider the breadth?

772
00:53:23,333 --> 00:53:27,437
And maybe we can have a bi-modal 
approach where you can also have 

773
00:53:27,437 --> 00:53:31,508
a cochlear implant, but you can 
also have sign language, too.

774
00:53:31,541 --> 00:53:35,946
We don't want to really force anyone
down this specific part.

775
00:53:35,979 --> 00:53:40,350
And so, again, this idea
of possibility model, I think, really

776
00:53:40,350 --> 00:53:47,224
has imparted itself upon me in almost
every way that I think about life

777
00:53:47,257 --> 00:53:48,992
and think about research.

778
00:53:49,025 --> 00:53:53,663
So again, coming back to Xenia,
I think, again, it's this idea of

779
00:53:53,663 --> 00:53:55,899
really embracing the possibility model.

780
00:53:56,099 --> 00:54:00,604
When you go to a gig,
there's not necessarily just one way

781
00:54:00,637 --> 00:54:02,505
in which you can appreciate it.

782
00:54:02,539 --> 00:54:08,545
And taking this spectral approach,
we need to be not just accommodating

783
00:54:08,578 --> 00:54:12,282
of everyone, but really just...

784
00:54:12,349 --> 00:54:16,419
It's that full acceptance and full wanting

785
00:54:16,453 --> 00:54:21,491
to have maximum flourishing, almost.

786
00:54:21,524 --> 00:54:25,428
We want to really maximize
the opportunity and the engagement.

787
00:54:25,462 --> 00:54:32,002
And I really love that Xenia concert
model, where we are, to some extent,

788
00:54:32,035 --> 00:54:34,938
deconstructing what it
means to have a concert.

789
00:54:34,971 --> 00:54:36,072
And I love that.

790
00:54:36,106 --> 00:54:41,811
As someone who really enjoys the work
of John Cage, where you can really

791
00:54:41,811 --> 00:54:47,984
go outside the bounds of what music
should be, I'm all for that.

792
00:54:48,652 --> 00:54:54,724
And the very last person I want to
have a quick shout out to is Ben Brown,

793
00:54:54,758 --> 00:55:00,130
who is a deaf percussionist,
and I was fortunate to meet him

794
00:55:00,130 --> 00:55:03,733
in Ottawa maybe two years ago.

795
00:55:04,334 --> 00:55:08,505
And he was running a workshop, almost...

796
00:55:08,505 --> 00:55:12,809
It was almost this philosophical way of listening.

797
00:55:12,909 --> 00:55:16,146
And I just really
appreciated his approach.

798
00:55:16,146 --> 00:55:21,451
You can imagine, I've been engaged
in listening, and I'm a musician,

799
00:55:21,484 --> 00:55:26,089
someone who studies music
psychology, someone who is really

800
00:55:26,089 --> 00:55:28,158
fundamentally engaged with this.

801
00:55:28,191 --> 00:55:31,361
And yet some of the things he was 
talking about was really new 

802
00:55:31,361 --> 00:55:34,631
and really quite mind-blowing, mind-expanding.

803
00:55:34,664 --> 00:55:40,503
And I appreciated how he was able
to introduce me, I suppose,

804
00:55:40,537 --> 00:55:43,406
to new ways of listening.

805
00:55:43,406 --> 00:55:47,544
And That, to me, again, is really falling 
within everything that I said so far, 

806
00:55:47,577 --> 00:55:52,482
this idea of this possibility model,
these new ways of interpreting sound,

807
00:55:52,515 --> 00:55:57,353
pairing that with vision,
pairing that with tactile touch.

808
00:55:57,387 --> 00:56:02,892
I think, again, coming back to this idea
of music as multisensory, hopefully,

809
00:56:02,892 --> 00:56:07,664
I've done a sufficient job in tying it
all together right at the end.

810
00:56:07,697 --> 00:56:09,933
Well, thank you so much.

811
00:56:09,933 --> 00:56:13,937
Good luck with everything
that is happening right now

812
00:56:13,970 --> 00:56:20,276
in present and future, you have lots
of work that is coming on that.

813
00:56:20,310 --> 00:56:26,549
Lots of writing, too, because all that is
going to become great articles for sure.

814
00:56:26,583 --> 00:56:28,651
Thank you so much.

815
00:56:28,685 --> 00:56:34,090
I'm sure we're going to
cross path again in some projects.

816
00:56:34,090 --> 00:56:38,661
I will have to find a way so that
you can come visit me in Australia.

817
00:56:38,695 --> 00:56:41,498
There's lots of projects I want to do and
lots of people I want to partner with,

818
00:56:41,531 --> 00:56:44,667
so we'll try and make some things happen.

819
00:56:44,701 --> 00:56:45,802
Thank you so much.

820
00:56:45,835 --> 00:56:49,005
Have a fantastic day and talk soon.

821
00:56:49,005 --> 00:56:50,073
Yeah.
Thank you so much.

822
00:56:50,073 --> 00:56:51,641
Thank you for having me, Diane.

823
00:56:51,641 --> 00:56:52,976
Thank you.
Bye.

824
00:56:54,544 --> 00:56:59,682
[Closing theme music]